Moral and legal questions on belting

Angelina

Milord (note for myself: have to improve the ability to do good examples!).

no problem, my argument was also relatively weak because I forgot what I actually wanted to say 😂 so again

Angelina Will you risk your daughter health without getting more information? I hope not.

the point is quite simple. i wore a chastity belt myself for over 4 1/2 years. i know all the physical and psychological problems that can arise. i think my experience allows me to judge very well whether a belt would harm my daughter

Milord As soon as I can I will prepare a list on how being voluntary wearer will mitigate the negative effect
Give me some time

that would certainly be interesting, you will find enough resources here

I have another question for you

If we agree (and we do) that the physical autonomy of a minor should not be interfered with and that the minor should make decisions about his or her own body (such as masturbation, sex, etc.), then I ask myself why not the same minor should also have the right and the autonomy to decide for themselves to put on a chastity belt and to prevent sex and masturbation. I see it as either the minor is mature enough to make sexual decisions or he/she isn't, everything else seems like double standards to me, you know what I mean

Milord

Angelina If we agree (and we do) that the physical autonomy of a minor should not be interfered with and that the minor should make decisions about his or her own body (such as masturbation, sex, etc.), then I ask myself why not the same minor should also have the right and the autonomy to decide for themselves to put on a chastity belt and to prevent sex and masturbation. I see it as either the minor is mature enough to make sexual decisions or he/she isn't, everything else seems like double standards to me, you know what I mean

Thanks for your beautiful thoughts
I think that there is a misundersting here. Tied with chastity belt there are two very different instances here
1) sex and masturbation prevention. Totally under minor control
2) health issues: not under minor control.

Until he's 18 a minor cannot, except for few and very specific cases, decide for himself. That why he cannot decide for vaxxins for example. Or to get access to hormones.
Since a CB impact on health, then there can be issues.

From a personal standpoint if something is at least at risk of incoking child protection services, for me it's ruled out.

Milord

Angelina that would certainly be interesting, you will find enough resources here

I answered you here
https://unwedchastity.org/d/1006-why-it-is-wrong-for-a-parent-to-use-chastity-on-offspring/151
to avoid disperding the topics

pestulens

Milord Not an expert, but I thought in most of Europe the age of medical majority was 16, so at that age, a minor could refuse medical treatment, or consent to it without parental approval/permission.

WriterAlexis

Milord

That why he cannot decide for vaxxins for example.

Finally, a topic with which I have extensive personal experience!

Expositionally, most of my extended family is totally off the mark regarding preventative healthcare, particularly regarding vaccination. They proffer such arguments as
1) They are part of a government/corporate plot.
2) They are the work of the devil.
3) They will cause heart failure.
4) They are made from aborted babies.
5) Our great-grandparents survived without them, so how necessary can they really be?

In reality, vaccines save lives. After the chlorination of drinking water, it is arguably the second most powerful public health measure that modern society has available. I contracted influenza two weeks ago, and I am still salty that I was not given the opportunity for a flu shot.

Typically, many of the basic childhood vaccines are required to attend kindergarten, elementary, and middle school. MMR, polio, and chickenpox, to name a few. Depending on the state, there are often religious or ethical exemptions offered with appropriate documentation.

I have been home schooled my entire life. Therefore, I am almost completely unvaccinated. To my knowledge, the only one I ever received was a TDAP many years ago when I had fallen out of a treehouse that I may technically not have been allowed to be in. But really, I should have been thanked for demonstrating just how dangerous it was. Took one for the team, I did! It is also theoretically possible that my birth mother could have taken me to vaccination appointments, but I have no records of it.

The regulation and access of healthcare services in the US is drastically more complicated than it needs to be. In general, anyone under 18 must have a parent or guardian to authorize medical examinations or procedures. But there are notable exceptions regarding vaccines and reproductive healthcare, entirely dependent on the state the provider is located in. Currently, 18 states plus DC have laws that allow for minors to receive some vaccines without parental consent. The majority of states also have laws for "mature minor doctrine," in which teenagers under 18 who are married, have children, or are supporting themselves can medically self-consent.

Unfortunately, in none of the states where I was living in did I meet any of the requisite qualifications. (It was not for lack of trying.) But I plan on remaining vaccine enthusiastic, and will get caught up with the recommended schedule as soon as I feasibly can.

Angelina

Milord Until he's 18 a minor cannot, except for few and very specific cases, decide for himself.

legally, in the reality within the family, things look different.

Milord

pestulens in Italy 18, also in USA
In other European countries it varies
https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2017/mapping-minimum-age-requirements-concerning-rights-child-eu/consenting-medical-treatment-without-parental-consent

Thanks for pointing out. Still, despite ages, my point is there are different questions

Milord

WriterAlexis this is a very hot topic, in Italy we were on the brink of a civil war.
Nevertheless we survived, and in the end mostly thanks to vaxxins.
I’ve a personal huge dislike for people that are against, mostly because the arguments used are only proof of enormous ignorance.
I’m happy to know that we are on the same page
In Italy before 18 you cant choose by themselves, and it was a war where young one want to be vaccinated while parents disagree
I understand in USA is different, and of course I don’t know the situation everywhere.

Milord

Angelina of course. This is just legal implications, then every family has specific rules. In Italy leaving offspring alone at home is a penal offence. It’s not that parents don’t normally leave a 13yo boy at home.

Angelina

Milord In Italy leaving offring alone at home is a penal offence

really? I mean, of course parents have a duty to look after their children, but I think it helps a teenager to be independent if they are home alone for a few hours, especially if their parents have to work

Milord

Angelina still is a criminal offence. It’s normally activated only if something wrong happens

Article 591.

          (Abandonment of minor or incapable people)

Anyone who abandons a person under the age of fourteen,or a person who is incapacitated, due to illness of mind or body, for old age, or for any other reason, to provide for herself, and of
whoever has custody or has to take care of it is punished with imprisonment from six months to five years.

Anyone who abandons a citizen abroad is subject to the same penalty Italian minor under the age of eighteen, entrusted to him in the territory
of the State for work reasons.

The penalty is imprisonment from one to six years if it results from the act a personal injury, and it is three to eight years if it results death.
The penalties are increased if the crime is committed by the parent, by
child, by the guardian or spouse, or by the adopter or
by the adoptee.

Sasha

Milord That all makes sense, and every developed country has similar laws.
The question is what they define as abandonment. Obviously if a parent leaves a minor alone to go on holiday, or a very young child for any reason is abandonment. But would the law consider a teen being at home a few hours abandonment?
Obviously there’s penalties if something happens, I’m just thinking about a scenario where it’s just found out they were alone a few hours after school or something

Tjc

Sasha I think @Sasha has a good point. There is a big difference between a 6 year old being left alone and a 14 year old, with a cell phone or landline, being left alone. I think it also makes a difference if they are alone at home as opposed to being left alone in a mall or park or some other public place.

Milord

Tjc @Sasha

This is an example of normal family systematic violation of law.
Anyway it has been used by a 13yo boy that called the divorced father because mother was late and he was alone at home. Father called cops and mother ended with a criminal charge.

As stated before, it is something that need to be activated. Cannot be randomly activated. It is still odd. Very different the case of a 2yo left by parents in the airport because they have not her passport. They called the aunt and let the infant there alone.

Tjc

Milord it has been used by a 13yo boy that called the divorced father because mother was late and he was alone at home. Father called cops and mother ended with a criminal charge.

It is only my opinion but I think the underlying issue here is the father found a way to make trouble for the mother. Rather than calling the police, a better solution would have been for the father to pickup the child or make other arrangements so the child was not alone. There are al lot of unknown circumstances here, how far away was the father, was he allowed to be near the son, was he allowed in the home, etc. I can't judge because of that but this feels more like a divorcee issue than a child abandonment issue.

Angelina

Milord Anyway it has been used by a 13yo boy that called the divorced father because mother was late and he was alone at home. Father called cops and mother ended with a criminal charge.

the father's revenge on the mother is probably more important here than the interests of the child. i think it is generally wrong to carry out marital problems (and i also include problems after a divorce) on the backs of the children

Milord

Angelina @Tjc
Totally agree with both, and yes it has been instrumental in suing the mother inside a war between parents
And yes a very poor choice, but I evoked this only to explain how the laws work

Angelina

Milord but I evoked this only to explain how the laws work

well, then the law doesn't really work, that's exactly how it is for many laws on the subject of sexuality, that's why i always say that legal and real things don't always coincide

Milord

Angelina totally agree. Still when something is illicit very often is also immoral.
I mean, not about administrative or civil offence, but criminal offences are normally something that are really very dangerous or morally unacceptable behavior. Not always but very often

Angelina

Milord

morality is also always a difficult subject because it is individual. For example, I don't think that taxing is moral, but many others see it differently . nevertheless, tax evasion is a crime, even if i don't see it as immoral in every situation

WriterAlexis

Milord

when something is illicit very often is also immoral.

I avoid conflation of legality and morality.

How many times have we seen laws imposed that are themselves oppressive, subjugatory, and immoral.

Milord

Angelina you are right. But there is a set of common values that define a specific community. Law should be the power that uphold this values.
Taxes are used (should be, I’m simplifying on purpose) for the benefit of the whole community. Not paying them is damaging the community you benefit from. Hence it’s immoral to evade them.
Then of course everyone one uphold his own principals, but I think that no one, at least here, thinks that his own moral or religious ideas allow to ignore the law

curious

Angelina I don't think that taxing is moral

So how would your alternative work? You need public infrastructure. From roads to sewage systems, from fire fighters to emergency doctors. Obviously you need to keep a state of readiness for these and paying based on 'i used that service' is not an option that would work.

pestulens

curious

Angelina

Milord
Just a reminder that this topic doesn't have the "politics" tag.

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