Moral and legal questions on belting

Milord

Angelina of course. This is just legal implications, then every family has specific rules. In Italy leaving offspring alone at home is a penal offence. It’s not that parents don’t normally leave a 13yo boy at home.

Angelina

Milord In Italy leaving offring alone at home is a penal offence

really? I mean, of course parents have a duty to look after their children, but I think it helps a teenager to be independent if they are home alone for a few hours, especially if their parents have to work

Milord

Angelina still is a criminal offence. It’s normally activated only if something wrong happens

Article 591.

          (Abandonment of minor or incapable people)

Anyone who abandons a person under the age of fourteen,or a person who is incapacitated, due to illness of mind or body, for old age, or for any other reason, to provide for herself, and of
whoever has custody or has to take care of it is punished with imprisonment from six months to five years.

Anyone who abandons a citizen abroad is subject to the same penalty Italian minor under the age of eighteen, entrusted to him in the territory
of the State for work reasons.

The penalty is imprisonment from one to six years if it results from the act a personal injury, and it is three to eight years if it results death.
The penalties are increased if the crime is committed by the parent, by
child, by the guardian or spouse, or by the adopter or
by the adoptee.

Sasha

Milord That all makes sense, and every developed country has similar laws.
The question is what they define as abandonment. Obviously if a parent leaves a minor alone to go on holiday, or a very young child for any reason is abandonment. But would the law consider a teen being at home a few hours abandonment?
Obviously there’s penalties if something happens, I’m just thinking about a scenario where it’s just found out they were alone a few hours after school or something

Tjc

Sasha I think @Sasha has a good point. There is a big difference between a 6 year old being left alone and a 14 year old, with a cell phone or landline, being left alone. I think it also makes a difference if they are alone at home as opposed to being left alone in a mall or park or some other public place.

Milord

Tjc @Sasha

This is an example of normal family systematic violation of law.
Anyway it has been used by a 13yo boy that called the divorced father because mother was late and he was alone at home. Father called cops and mother ended with a criminal charge.

As stated before, it is something that need to be activated. Cannot be randomly activated. It is still odd. Very different the case of a 2yo left by parents in the airport because they have not her passport. They called the aunt and let the infant there alone.

Tjc

Milord it has been used by a 13yo boy that called the divorced father because mother was late and he was alone at home. Father called cops and mother ended with a criminal charge.

It is only my opinion but I think the underlying issue here is the father found a way to make trouble for the mother. Rather than calling the police, a better solution would have been for the father to pickup the child or make other arrangements so the child was not alone. There are al lot of unknown circumstances here, how far away was the father, was he allowed to be near the son, was he allowed in the home, etc. I can't judge because of that but this feels more like a divorcee issue than a child abandonment issue.

Angelina

Milord Anyway it has been used by a 13yo boy that called the divorced father because mother was late and he was alone at home. Father called cops and mother ended with a criminal charge.

the father's revenge on the mother is probably more important here than the interests of the child. i think it is generally wrong to carry out marital problems (and i also include problems after a divorce) on the backs of the children

Milord

Angelina @Tjc
Totally agree with both, and yes it has been instrumental in suing the mother inside a war between parents
And yes a very poor choice, but I evoked this only to explain how the laws work

Angelina

Milord but I evoked this only to explain how the laws work

well, then the law doesn't really work, that's exactly how it is for many laws on the subject of sexuality, that's why i always say that legal and real things don't always coincide

Milord

Angelina totally agree. Still when something is illicit very often is also immoral.
I mean, not about administrative or civil offence, but criminal offences are normally something that are really very dangerous or morally unacceptable behavior. Not always but very often

Angelina

Milord

morality is also always a difficult subject because it is individual. For example, I don't think that taxing is moral, but many others see it differently . nevertheless, tax evasion is a crime, even if i don't see it as immoral in every situation

WriterAlexis

Milord

when something is illicit very often is also immoral.

I avoid conflation of legality and morality.

How many times have we seen laws imposed that are themselves oppressive, subjugatory, and immoral.

Milord

Angelina you are right. But there is a set of common values that define a specific community. Law should be the power that uphold this values.
Taxes are used (should be, I’m simplifying on purpose) for the benefit of the whole community. Not paying them is damaging the community you benefit from. Hence it’s immoral to evade them.
Then of course everyone one uphold his own principals, but I think that no one, at least here, thinks that his own moral or religious ideas allow to ignore the law

curious

Angelina I don't think that taxing is moral

So how would your alternative work? You need public infrastructure. From roads to sewage systems, from fire fighters to emergency doctors. Obviously you need to keep a state of readiness for these and paying based on 'i used that service' is not an option that would work.

pestulens

curious

Angelina

Milord
Just a reminder that this topic doesn't have the "politics" tag.

Sasha

Milord Then of course everyone one uphold his own principals, but I think that no one, at least here, thinks that his own moral or religious ideas allow to ignore the law

Not anymore at least, wasn’t that long ago I had a whole other idea about that.
As for taxes as an example. It’s my belief that taxing a country to support wasteful spending by their government is wrong and immoral. Me paying a fair tax and them responsibly using it for the benefit of the citizens, is moral

Angelina

Milord Taxes are used (should be, I’m simplifying on purpose) for the benefit of the whole community.

and since this is often not the case from my point of view, I see it differently. but i still pay taxes and obey the law even if i find it immoral

curious So how would your alternative work?

pestulens Just a reminder that this topic doesn't have the "politics" tag.

@curious i will gladly answer you in a political topic, i have many ideas. here i just used it as an example that morality is an individual thing and law and morality should not be the same thing

WriterAlexis

curious

paying based on 'i used that service' is not an option that would work.

Check out Snow Crash.

WriterAlexis

pestulens

Just a reminder that this topic doesn't have the "politics" tag.

Another reminder- @Ines is gone for a few weeks. 😋

Milord

WriterAlexis in the past happened very often. Today it happens, but not so often as before. Let's say that being in a democracy should ensure that laws are an expression of people's will and community principles. Not all, not everywhere, but this should be the spirit, especially within criminal jurisdiction.
In Italy, we have some obsolete penal laws, and some that are somehow strange, but for the most part, they are acceptable.

curious

Milord
Wrong.
Since laws were invented they have been used and abused by those people currently in power to
A) ensure they stay in power as much as this is possible
B) shape the legal landscape in order to impose their world view on everyone and outlaw anything that goes against it

Look no further than the U.S. for proof of that.

A powerful lobby with political influence prevents even the most basic and common sense gun controls.
A minority (by overall vote count) political party has shaped voting districts in a way that the number of lawmakers does not reflect the actual voter affiliation (by vote count) .
The overwhelming majority (based on many polls) is in favour of liberal abortion regulations, but a minority in control of political power (through means mentioned above) is doing their very best to impose their restrictive views on everyone, criminalising those women who dare to make their own decisions about their body.

BTW: Considering the above it is kind of funny how much energy you invest in a forum like this one to flight against less than a handful of people who are - let's say pushed - towards being in a belt they themselves would not have chosen without that push, while ignoring much more serious and widespread problems.

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