Moral and legal questions on belting

Kaja

curious But there is something called objectivity. They dont have true. They didnt have and they will never have.

curious

Kaja
What makes you so certain that the truth is on your side?
What if the other side claims, that actually they have it and you are wrong?
In natural sciences, there are facts. Those are objectivly either true or false. When it comes to what values people believe in and want to live by, there is no true or false. There is no objectivity, there is just subjective opinions which unfortunately more often than not collide.
And this is the actual problem. It is very easy to say "I am right, you are wrong" and then you try to impose your values on everyone else, just because you happen to be strong enough to do so.
Well, you mentioned the history of your country. So let us look a bit into history.
1968, Prague Spring. USSR had values which unfortunately have not been in line with the demand for freedom of the Czech people. USSR was strong enough, so it enforced its values and you lost the freedom you wanted to have. That is what haoppens if you allow other people to interfere based on their attitude of "I know better, so I make the rules".

youdontknowme

Kaja Do you really say that it will be better if the will stay slaves for other 50 years?

At least white southerners would get along much better with the yanks, I guess. All the people freed by the civil war be damned.

Peace at all cost worked wonderfully for Czechoslovakia back in 1938, did it not?

Kaja

youdontknowme Im realy alergic to his bullsits. Becaizse my country has to experience Munchen in 1938, year 1948, year 1968, ...

And yes, USA ans others help us and it is why we can have for more than 30 years freedom and prosperity. Because our country and fates were not indifferent to others.

And now we have to help Ukraine and Tchainwan and others who needs. We have to make world a better place.

Kaja

Milord He will start recommended it for every one. Because he know what is the best for others and he loves chastity more than human rights even more than humas.
Read his posts and ask after it again. It is not necesary.

Milord

Kaja
I read them. @curious is right about me on one thing: I'm naive.
I think humans are good and moral creatures, even if deeply hidden, everyone can have a chance to be better. Of course it applies to me too
There is a quote from a latin poet, Terence
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto, or "I am human, and I think nothing human is alien to me."
This is my life philosophy
So, apologize if I still try.

Kaja

Milord There is on quote from lor Baden-Powell what I really like: "Try and leave this world a little better than you found it, and when your turn comes to die, you can die happy in feeling that at any rate, you have not wasted your time but have done your best."

Milord

Kaja And yes, USA ans others help us and it is why we can have for more than 30 years freedom and prosperity. Because our country and fates were not indifferent to others.

And now we have to help Ukraine and Tchainwan and others who needs. We have to make world a better place.

Here. Exactly.

youdontknowme

Kaja I for one am very happy that America and Britain interfered in the history of my country with help from the French, even if it came at a steep costs to many of its citizens. Less happy with the Soviet interference, but I recognize that it was necessary for the defeat of the injustice that ruled this land, and I very much believe that this country has become a better place due to other countries imposing their demands on us.

curious

Kaja And now we have to help Ukraine and Tchainwan and others who needs.

You are comparing apples with pears, so to speak.
The current conflict in Ukraine is one not internal to the Ukraine but there is another country (Russia) involved and so we can help Ukraine to defend itself - if it asks to be helped.
What we have no right to do is fight against Russia on behalf of Ukraine, if Ukraine for example did not want our support.

curious

Kaja
No, that is not what I am saying.
What I am saying that this is a problem the society of the respective country has to sort out internally.
We are not the moderators of the world. What people in Afghanistan do or not do is primarily their business and it is not for us to decide how they want to live.

Milord

curious And this is the actual problem. It is very easy to say "I am right, you are wrong" and then you try to impose your values on everyone else, just because you happen to be strong enough to do so.

That's pretty easy: it's wrong anytime someone uses his power to do to others something he will never want to be enforced on himself. Not very difficult to understand. Racism, discrimination, women submission, etc, all children of the idea that someone has the right to enforce something to others against their will while staying on the safe side.

Spork

Milord That's pretty easy: it's wrong anytime someone uses his power to do to others something he will never want to be enforced on himself.

This only works if you assume that everyone is competent and rational enough to make long-term decisions about their own wellbeing, and that everyone shares the same values. Take paying taxes, for example: you probably don't want to do it, but also you don't want to live in a society where nobody does it. But then the question arises as to how much taxation is the "right" level of taxation, and if you asked people in Sweden and the United States you'd get very different answers. Who is right?

Milord

Spork we are talking about basic, universal, rights: freedom, life, not to be discriminated, and few others, as for the universal declaration of rights. Other applications will be enormously stupid.

Spork

Milord we are talking about basic, universal, rights: freedom, life, not to be discriminated, and few others, as for the universal declaration of rights. Other applications will be enormously stupid.

Those are very modern Western-centric views on what basic rights are. Remember that democracy is a minority position both in terms of population and time, and a large portion of the six billion plus people who aren't in Europe or the Americas aren't really in favour of it for various reasons.

Milord

Spork
It has been subscribed by all UN countries. Western or not.

Beside this, democracy doesn’t appear in the declaration, while right to vote is.

Ines

Spork Western-centric

And? Absolutely better than another ones. It is as to eat with a fork or with sticks, absolutely superior the fork. Obviously I will not say to Japanese that they have to eat with fork, but, obviously, it is better invention.

Spork

Milord Have been subscribed by all UN countries. Western or not.

Do you really think a majority of the world's population believes in freedom of religion? Even in the United States there's a substantial portion of the population who believe that freedom of religion means free to pick which form of Christianity you subscribe to. In China, it's a majority viewpoint that the state is right to crack down on religions that run contrary to national ideals. Among European muslims, it's a majority viewpoint that it should be illegal for muslims to abandon or change their religion. Liberalism is and always has been something a small group of educated Westerners have attempted to impose upon a larger population who mostly don't really care for the idea. Personally I am very glad they have at least somewhat succeeded in some places.

curious

Milord while right to vote is.

Catalan separist movement held a vote about making the region of Catalonia indepäendent from Spain. Peaceful, no violence. And then those who initiated that peaceful vote were prosecuted and jailed in Spain.
So the so called 'universal rights' are not even universally upheld in European countries.
What about Southern Tyrolia? Majority non-italian but German speaking population. What if they vote to leave Italy and instead join Austria? Will the Italian government regognise their rights and let them go?

curious

Spork
Very well said.
And the problem is that western countries are creating tension and violence by trying to impose western values on people that do not believe in nor want to live by our values.
I am pretty sure 9/11 or terror attacks in London or Paris would never have happened if western countries had not tried to influence the way of life in countries like Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and others. If you leave people alone they generally tend to not have an issue with you.

Milord

Spork

Principles are about how it should be, not how it is. But if you don't push for it, it will never go better. Being Jewish less that 100 years ago meant to be persecuted. If this is not true anymore you have to thank people that think the opposite of @curious

But also UN intervention in Kosovo, or in Uganda saved people.

Errors have been made, of course, but at least we should aspire to a better world. This is why sticking with principles is important

In the very small world of chastity, there are abuses? Probably yes, but should we say at least that coercion is wrong? Yes we have to, because it's the rightful way to do things

Milord

@curious @Spork

There is a difference between reality, with all his flaws, and ideals you should aspire. Without ideals we never had moved out from tribal social organization.
Can be better? Yes, but not without the help of people like @Kaja. For sure, not thanks to you @curious

@curious there is a post about infibulation. Feel free to answer instead of cherry picking what I write each time.

curious

Milord @curious there is a post about infibulation. Feel free to answer instead of cherry picking what I write each time.

Ok, while I personally am opposed to that practice, it is not my right to decide how other people live their lives. It is their responsibility how to structure their society and abolish that practice.
And when you are at it:
The practice of cutting infant boys is morally exactly the same. Genital mutilation of an infant who will have to live with the coünsequences for the entire life. And yet it is widely accepted practice even in western countries like the US.
Instead of trying to score easy points by selectively putting forward things that are populär and likely to get attention and easy support for your position, why not do the hard work, take a step back and look at the larger problem and apply the same moral principles you claim to uphold everywhere, even where you will not score easy points?

Spork

Milord What is your problem in understanding the difference between reality, with all his flaws, and ideals you should aspire too? Without ideals we never had moved out from tribal social organization. You live in democratic countries, right?
Can be better? Yes, but not without the help of people like @Kaja. For sure, not thanks to you

I live in a roughly democratic country where a slim majority has voted for some extremely dumb and hateful stuff. This isn't unique to the UK, either: Australia and the US have had recent periods of insanity, and Germany is probably next, particularly if they keep talking about trying to ban political parties that aren't sufficiently liberal. I believe we can continue to make the world a better place for everyone to live, but also that this will not happen under current political systems. Honestly, I think the solution here is to restrict the voting population to people who are sufficiently educated, literate, and numerate that they can understand the consequences of their actions. Most democracies weren't founded with everyone having the right to vote, and now that we've tried allowing it and finding out what happens, perhaps it's time for a rethink.

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