Thighbands

Ines

Very interesting post. I love my bourgeois hypocrisy, then.
One of the best posts of last times in the forum.

Andrew

Ines I love my bourgeois hypocrisy, then.

As I suspected, you are "reactionary element"! 🤣

Avery As an American, though, my anthem remains the well-known English language tune from the musical Flower Drum Song: "I Enjoy Being A Girl".

A wonderful manifesto of girlhood. 😀

Kaja The main idea is that I CAN do the same like boys but I DONT HAVE to do the same. We have free of the choise.

Totally agree here with you.

Kaja Poor guys like Ines cant go out from ancient social construct.

Some women like this system and it makes no sense to "liberate" them by force. Part of freedom is being able to choose own lifestyle.

Avery

Andrew Therefore, when @Kaja writes today that Czech girls and boys differ only in having a penis/vagina, she probably means no major differences when it comes to social expectations related to gender.

A well thought out, well-written, and interesting post. I think the key words are "post-communist" and "Czech" (though what you say no doubt applies to other countries in that area).

As an American, though, my anthem remains the well-known English language tune from the musical Flower Drum Song: "I Enjoy Being A Girl".

Kaja

Avery I love being girl to.

The main idea is that I CAN do the same like boys but I DONT HAVE to do the same. We have free of the choise.

Poor guys like Ines cant go out from ancient social construct.

Freedom is everything. Freedom is the best!

Avery

Kaja Poor guys like Ines cant go out from ancient social construct.

Well, I don't think she wants to go out from it. And she's well on her way to becoming a doctor which was always a male dominated field in my country until late in the 1900s.

Ines

Kaja Poor guys like Ines

Save your pity for yourself, thanks.

Andrew "liberate"

Liberate? There is not anyone to be liberated. I am in a society where I can be fullfiled as girl. The option is be squeezed in every corner and eat after day pills as breakfast.
I live very happy as woman here, and I have so many freedom as I can need.

Avery

Andrew A wonderful manifesto of girlhood. 😀

Some notes. "Girlhood" was the word we used when we were young to refer to our privates. I mean who would want to say funky words like vulva or vagina in conversation. Nobody. Also, I understand "Fräulein" is now considered by real Germans to be a diminutive and sexist and is not used. But it's used all the time in older US movies. The same is true to an extent in the US about the word "girl". Young adult or young woman or just woman are preferred, but people use girl all the time. In high school athletics all the events for females are referred to as "girl's 1500m, or girl's long jump". Until one makes the New England high school championships when the events magically become "women's 1500m, etc.

Avery

Andrew Part of freedom is being able to choose own lifestyle.

Well said.

Angelina

Mr-TM No, unfortunately not.

angelina0703@t-online.de 😉

Andrew

wow, one of the best posts i have ever seen here respect. i have absolutely nothing to do with communist values, but i think a girl's appearance and behaviour can have conservative aspects even from a liberal perspective, because values and norms (conservative) are a prerequisite for freedom. 🙂

Andrew Part of freedom is being able to choose own lifestyle.

correct, this also applies if the lifestyle is not liberal

PS: I think in general clothing, sitting position and appearance are important if you want to achieve something. my father is meeting with a CEO in a few days about a new assigment (and a lot of money for us), i think he would have a bad chance in a trainigsuit and with a beer bottle in his hand, although that depends on the quality of the work wouldn't change anything 😂

youdontknowme

Avery Fräulein is mostly the equivalent of Miss - and I do not think the primary reason it is considered sexist is the diminuitive form, but that it defines women by their marriage status while unmarried and married men are given the same honorific. The days of "Mrs. [Husband's name]" may be long gone, but the Miss/Mrs. distinction is sort of seen as a relic of that. Unlike English, German does not have a third form like Ms., but simply uses "Frau", the same word that would also be used for married women.

As for girls/women, that is something I struggle with a lot, because in referring to myself I strongly prefer "boy" or "male" over "man", but the equivalent terms for the opposite sex are so frequently used by misogynists that they are considered discriminatory in modern English.

Andrew

Ines Liberate? There is not anyone to be liberated

That's why I put it in quotation marks to indicate irony.

youdontknowme Fräulein is mostly the equivalent of Miss - and I do not think the primary reason it is considered sexist is the diminuitive form, but that it defines women by their marriage status while unmarried and married men are given the same honorific.

For the same reason, the word "panna" (the equivalent of the German "Fraulein") has disappeared from everyday use in Polish. Today, both married and unmarried women are addressed in Polish as "pani" (Frau).

youdontknowme The days of "Mrs. [Husband's name]" may be long gone

Is it the husband's last name or some construction derived from his first name?

curious But to fit in, I am expected to dress appropriately, just as women are expected to - in order to get back to the original context - sit with their legs closed.

Basically yes, but sitting by a woman (who wears trousers) with her legs spread apart is sometimes perceived as a position of power and self-confidence.

curious

@Kaja
You might not be aware of it - either because of that post socialism model in Czech Republic or because you are simply too young. But being aware of your social status and trying to stay as high in that ranking as possible is actually a good thing. No matter what social background Ines has, once she has completed her studies as a doctor, that should be the key to get access to the upper echelons of society, if that is her wish.
And in these circles, certain behaviour and adherance to - what you would call - old fashioned norms and rules is expected.
So yes, maybe she has to behave in a certain way, but in return she will get quite a lot of advantages in other areas which make more than up for the discomfort associated with these unwritten rules.
And again, this is not about gender and being disadvantaged.
It simply means that these traditional rules differentiate between men and women. In some areas men have advantages, in other areas women. Consider this: Do you think it is comfortable with a dark business suit, shirt and tie when it is really hot? How often have I envied women who can go about wearing a light but stylish dress for those hot days.
But to fit in, I am expected to dress appropriately, just as women are expected to - in order to get back to the original context - sit with their legs closed.

Kaja

curious Thankufuly is Czech Republic equalitarian country. Nobody evaluates you by your social class (might be because nobody can recognise it?).

I cant rekognise by first look who is my university teacher, who is doctor, who shop asistant and who ... And it is good. All people are equal, nobody is more than others.

System of social classes like in GB is disaster.

Ines

curious

Agree.
However, I would not identify it with an upper class social norm.
The truth is that I ca not complain about my sociocultural environment, but I do not belong to the aristocracy or to the pinnacle of the social pyramid either.
However, seeing a woman badly seated already gives me a certain aversion, it is like seeing someone erupting sitting at the table, it is unpleasant and typical of someone who does not have a minimum of civilization.
As @curious rightly says, the higher you go in the social hierarchy, the stricter the protocol, and I do not move in those circles, but sit with your knees together, or at least with your legs tightly crossed for girls who do not wear a belt, It is a very basic minimum.

youdontknowme

Kaja Over here we still have a fair share of those "old money" folks who would easily be able to tell insiders from outsiders based on behavioral subtleties. Luckily, in the environment and professions I live in, their favor is not that valuable.

Avery

Kaja I cant recognize by first look who is my university teacher, who is doctor, who shop assistant and who ... And it is good. All people are equal, nobody is more than others.

That's great, I'm sure you're ahead of my country. A better test than appearance, I think, is the extent of intermingling. Would you date the son of the man who cuts your father's lawn. Would you have the same interests. Could you bring the boy home, what would parents say. Could you marry him and each of you be accepted by the other's family.

youdontknowme

Andrew Is it the husband's last name or some construction derived from his first name?

It is still common for a woman to take her husband's last name upon marriage, but I was talking about the ancient "Mrs. John Doe" construct that has luckily fallen out of use. Even the equivalent of "Mr. and Mrs. John Doe" is considered rather impolite in modern German.

Andrew

youdontknowme I was talking about the ancient "Mrs. John Doe" construct that has luckily fallen out of use.

I assumed it was about so called andronyms. In Poland, they are sometimes found in rural environments, when especially women talk about their neighbors and refer to them in a way derived from their husbands' names (e.g. my name is "Andrzej" in Polish, so my wife would be referred to as "Andrzejowa", literally means "belonging to Andrew"). This way of referring to women is still common in Hungary today.

youdontknowme

Ines seeing someone erupting sitting at the table

"Erupting"? My first thought was emesis, but I feel like you probably mean some kind of gaseous emissions?

Ines

youdontknowme

Yes, Google translator gave me that word.
I do no use it for writing, but I ask for some words.

hanna_anders

youdontknowme like exploding with anger?

Mr-TM

Angelina i think he would have a bad chance in a trainigsuit and with a beer bottle in his hand

🤣 🤣 🤣

I'm glad that I work in IT. You don't have to wear a suit there, but can wear the clothes you normally wear.

But, on special occasions, I have suits that I like to wear. It just makes a difference.
I was in some musicals and wonder how you can go there with the everyday clothes? It's like the theater or a banquet. There it must already be a suit.

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