Moral and legal questions on belting

Milord

Sasha In this context, saying interference with sexual freedom and development has negative effects, because while it may hold true for an individual, say a juvenile presenting with behavioral problems who has been forced into chastity. It’s possible, not likely, but possible this may not hold true for the group. Or that whatever negative effects it has are vastly outweighed by the positive.
That’s why studies are so important, looks at a larger group, can be replicated and peer reviewed. Obviously this specific subject would not be widely studied outside of instances of parents abusing their children and the negative outcomes, due to ethical and moral concerns. Which is in a way problematic in this discussion, since all we have to look at are negatively impacted individuals, there’s no opportunity to look at individuals where chastity was introduced and the subject being cared for adequately otherwise. If such a study could be considered ethically, it’s likely that the conclusion would be overall negative showing no positive gains whatsoever, could go the other way though, showing individuals excelling in various other areas with just the discomfort of the hardware.

I understand your path of thought, let me clarify my way to see things. Impacting on body autonomy is damaging. This is something that has been studied, proven, and is generically accepted as truth. Also, it's illegal.
You say that it is possible that in some cases, it can be beneficial.
Of course: humans are not machines, and their behavior is unpredictable. Some people genuinely thank their father for beating them (not spanking, but using belts or worse) because they benefit from discipline. Will that makes beating your kids acceptable?
Moreover you will never know in advance. So it's about taking risk on doing something that most probably will damage offspring against a small possibility that it can be beneficial.
Its pretty interesting, in my opinion, that chastity belt has never been considered a solution. Not even for excessive masturbation issues for mentally disabled. In some case bondage is considered an, albeit temporary, solution. There are medical restraints that are approved by FDA. but no chastity belt ASAIK
Future will tell if there are cases in which putting teens or young adults in chastity will be beneficial. Probably there are, but for most the effects are negative.
Also, please understand that I asked for qualified opinions. The fact that it is very damaging is not only a common opinion, but it's a unanimous one, and I asked researchers, medical doctors, neurologists, pedagogists, and three different people working on social services. There are more things to say, but I don't want to annoy you. If you want, you can find my email in profile.
Thank you agsin for your beautiful suggestions

Sasha

Milord Not my intention to challenge what I’d generally agree is correct, that needlessly restricting autonomy is damaging.
Though it’s an interesting concept, all other areas being cared for in a loving nurturing environment, what would that study yield. We only get to evaluate the very small numbers of instances where it was used negatively.
Like I said not meant to challenge or discredit what are likely correct positions, just a point for conversation on the subject
Also feel like I should repeat that such a study would be unethical no matter the results.
Just like studying what would happen if a juvenile was left to their own devices, most examples end up like I did, a negative outcome. Obviously we can’t study this though for ethical reasons, who knows maybe kids like me would be the exception not the rule, but we definitely can’t run that experiment

Sasha

Milord Oh and something I feel I should mention. You don’t have to worry about annoying me, if it happens I’ll respectfully say it. I don’t hide things anymore

Tjc

Milord Impacting on body autonomy is damaging. This is something that has been studied, proven, and is generically accepted as truth. Also, it's illegal.

Do you have a reference for these studies? They would be interesting to read. Do you have an example of legal prohibition on impacting body autonomy? I am interested in find out how to look for local laws.

Milord

Sasha Though it’s an interesting concept, all other areas being cared for in a loving nurturing environment, what would that study yield. We only get to evaluate the very small numbers of instances where it was used negatively.

Chastity belt is a small niche even in kinky community, where the ratio cage : belt is around 10 : 1.
In this very small numbers, using by parents is even a very small percentage. Generally unacceptable in all the West
Almost impossible there will be studies on it.
Then for me caring and nurturing is conflicting with imposing chastity belt. I already explained why, so I will not repeat it again

WriterAlexis

Sasha

Just like studying what would happen if a juvenile was left to their own devices, most examples end up like I did, a negative outcome. Obviously we can’t study this though for ethical reasons, who knows maybe kids like me would be the exception not the rule, but we definitely can’t run that experiment.

Leaving children completely alone is actually called "the forbidden experiment."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_deprivation_experiments

Sasha

WriterAlexis I’ve read about those experiments before. Unethical to say the least.

Milord

Angelina lina"#p108351

As soon as I can I will prepare a list on how being voluntary wearer will mitigate the negative effect
Give me some time

Angelina

Milord (note for myself: have to improve the ability to do good examples!).

no problem, my argument was also relatively weak because I forgot what I actually wanted to say 😂 so again

Angelina Will you risk your daughter health without getting more information? I hope not.

the point is quite simple. i wore a chastity belt myself for over 4 1/2 years. i know all the physical and psychological problems that can arise. i think my experience allows me to judge very well whether a belt would harm my daughter

Milord As soon as I can I will prepare a list on how being voluntary wearer will mitigate the negative effect
Give me some time

that would certainly be interesting, you will find enough resources here

I have another question for you

If we agree (and we do) that the physical autonomy of a minor should not be interfered with and that the minor should make decisions about his or her own body (such as masturbation, sex, etc.), then I ask myself why not the same minor should also have the right and the autonomy to decide for themselves to put on a chastity belt and to prevent sex and masturbation. I see it as either the minor is mature enough to make sexual decisions or he/she isn't, everything else seems like double standards to me, you know what I mean

Milord

Tjc

Hi
I wrote a lot of things and get lost!
OK, I will rebuilt it. In the meantime you can check this. But before, just to be sure that I understand correctly. Are you asking me to prove that preventing sexual freedom is damaging and illegal?

https://www.unfpa.org/press/bodily-autonomy-fundamental-right#:~:text=Bodily%20autonomy%20means%20my%20body,all%2C%20it's%20a%20fundamental%20right.

Its from UN and explain very well the concept of body authonomy

And this, specifically for minors

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26016017/

"This Article is the first in the legal literature to analyze the constitutional right of minors to bodily integrity within the family by spanning traditionally disparate doctrinal categories such as abortion rights; corporal punishment; medical decisionmaking; and nontherapeutic physical interventions such as tattooing, piercing, and circumcision."

And this
From un convention on the right of the children
Article 19

States Parties shall take all appropriate legislative, administrative, social and educational measures to protect the child from all forms of physical or mental violence, injury or abuse, neglect or negligent treatment, maltreatment or exploitation, including sexual abuse, while in the care of parent(s), legal guardian(s) or any other person who has the care of the child.

Tjc

Milord No, Sir. Not asking you to prove anything. I was just looking for source references to read. Thank you

pestulens

I believe the question was less on the illegality and more on providing evidence of the actual harm it causes.
Legal theory is only relevant within the jurisdiction of the particular laws it is based on, while evidence of actual harm is generalizable to at lest anywhere populated by humans.

Milord

pestulens I asked to understand better the request.
As for being illegal, in all Western world sexual freedom is a right, and violating it is a crime. The same is for body integrity and authonomy.

WriterAlexis

Milord

in all Western world sexual freedom is a right

I am not aware of anything explicitly granting a right to "sexual freedom" in US law, but there could be.

The closest thing I know of is Title VII of the Civil Rights Act which prevents discrimination on the basis of sex, sexual orientation, and gender identity. For example, your employer cannot terminate your contract for coming out as gay or non-binary.

The trouble is that the current Supreme Court makeup is highly conservative and has been chipping away at those protections with 1st Amendment religious liberty cases. Our Constitution says that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." For example, an employer that has religious views can prohibit employees from displaying gay pride symbols at work, a baker can refuse to make a cake for a gay wedding, and an employer can refuse to cover the healthcare costs associated with contraceptives or abortion. There is even a fight right now that the military won't be funding travel from states where abortion has been banned in order to access those reproductive services for our soldiers. The state of Florida has banned public school teachers from any instruction of gender identity or sexual orientation.

So my suspicion is that even if you do find an actual law or legal precedent that guarantees "sexual freedom," it would quickly come under fire from the religious right. Boycotting businesses or organizations wouldn't work either, because in various geographic distributions they have the numbers to actively seek out and patronize these practices.

Tjc

WriterAlexis I am not aware of anything explicitly granting a right to "sexual freedom" in US law

I think you are correct. In the US, the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom (NCSF) is working on model legislation that would grant specific rights and overturn laws regulating or prohibiting sexual freedom.

Milord

@tjc @WriterAlexis
For me it's very difficult to navigate in Usa legislative system. I don't like to write things that are unaccurate, that's why I ask to specialists when i feel I'm not prepared
I'm grateful for your challenges, because they are thought provoking and allow me to learn more and broaden my knowledge
Still i have to admit that usa baffles me because it seems to ignore even basic common sense.
I will study the matter

James

Milord Still i have to admit that usa baffles me because it seems to ignore even basic common sense.

Common sense is rarely common.

Sasha

Milord Common sense generally isn’t that common, unfortunately
There’s also the ever present threat of retaliation via civil suit. Say DCF removed a child because their parents enforced a chastity device, a judge rules it wasn’t used in an abusive manner, then the parents sue DCF for some insane amount of money.
That’s why legally at least in the US this is tricky, there aren’t to my knowledge any laws specifically granting sexual autonomy to minors, meaning any decisions on the subject would be left to a judge to determine if there was A: abuse taking place, and B: if so does it amount to sexual abuse. This would establish case law which other courts would use to make similar rulings.

The general gist of this is, and I’d imagine that EU countries are similar, if there isn’t a specific law that applies to this situation a judge uses what laws there are and interprets them as they see it applying to this case. Which establishes case law, which can be challenged, overturned, etc by higher courts.
Judges also have a lot of latitude on sentencing

Milord

Sasha The general gist of this is, and I’d imagine that EU countries are similar, if there isn’t a specific law that applies to this situation a judge uses what laws there are and interprets them as they see it applying to this case. Which establishes case law, which can be challenged, overturned, etc by higher courts.
Judges also have a lot of latitude on sentencing

No, Europe is totally different. Civil law (the system used in Europe, based on the law as the prevalent source of jurisdiction) doesn't allow for court case. Only the highest court (in Italy, "la corte di Cassazione") can provide the address in law interpretation, but can't create causes. So our system is stiffer, but also less submitted to judge whims.
Then in Italy there is the highest sensibility for child abuses, and moreover involvement of "servizi sociali" (community services) very often end with the child being carried away.
You can see by yourself, that while there are some Italians here, I never read about successfully belting from parents.

Forgive the poor explanation. If you search "common law vs civil law" you will find a lot of more useful resources

Sasha

Milord I’d have to think there would be some equivalent to case law in EU countries. Because if we created laws for everything it would get so complicated even lawyers wouldn’t know what’s going on.
Something common like assault and murder are easy to cover, various degrees which everything fits into, penalties for each, simple. Something that is nuanced though is harder to cover like that. Which is where (in our context here) a judge would first apply sexual abuse laws, if that doesn’t quite fit then they’d see if abuse laws would. It’s possible though that what they have before them fits neither, but obviously is not in the child’s best interest.
Therefore they could rule that on this and that grounds it constitutes abuse and render judgement. Or rule that under the conditions presented there’s no abuse, not likely if chastity ended up in their court but who knows. Of course higher courts can overturn that, and it could eventually end up in front of the Supreme Court which would establish the precedent all courts and legislatures use. Abortion rights are a good example.
Obviously I’m not a lawyer, so my example may not be entirely accurate but that’s at least my understanding of it.
Edit: should note my understanding comes from common law not civil law, should be interesting learning more how the systems differ

WriterAlexis

Sasha

Because if we created laws for everything it would get so complicated

Brussels drops complex regulations on the weekly.

Very different system.

Milord

WriterAlexis Impressively compex, and ruling on a huge amount of things.

Sasha Therefore they could rule that on this and that grounds it constitutes abuse and render judgment. Or rule that under the conditions presented, there’s no abuse, not likely if chastity ended up in their court but who knows. Of course higher courts can overturn that, and it could eventually end up in front of the Supreme Court which would establish the precedent all courts and legislatures use. Abortion rights are a good example.

In Italy, there is a tribunal dedicated to minors (tribunale dei minori) separated from the rest of the tribunals. The rules are that the minors' interest is prevalent above all. Very often it ends in minor having to get back into their families with the supervision of community services. They can (and often are) be activated by school authorities. For example, if a minor doesn't go to school. (In Italy school us mandatory up to 16yo). Anyway one hundred percent, if discovered a minor in chastity will have the parents prosecuted for abuse and the offended offspring in a protected structure.

Sasha Edit: should note my understanding comes from common law not civil law, should be interesting learning more how the systems differ

There is totally different: For example in civil law there is no popular jury, except for very few cases (Corte di assise).

Italy has a lot of issues, but I don't see here the madness sweeping through USA. For example, there is no discussion over abortion. Also true that with a right government elected we have lost some rights (horribly so) on minority sides, like the fact that same sex adoption performed outside Italy boundaries cannot be transpripted. A judicial horror!

Sasha

WriterAlexis Interesting, worth reading more about

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