Moral and legal questions on belting

Milord

Sabina hi Sabina
Trying to recover for a 12 hours driving…. Really tired!

Sabina 1) Obviously, it is worthy of the highest condemnation if parents force a minor to wear a chastity belt using a relationship of dependence. But don't you think that a person of, say, 16-17 years of age (and therefore mature enough to have sex legally in almost all European countries) is mature enough to be able to decide that his or her body is restricted to some extent? A good such as freedom can, after all, be restricted quite freely with the consent of its possessor. I ask because I have had a similar experience myself - I got the belt when I was 17, but my parents did not in any way force me to wear it, I did so entirely voluntarily.

Consent is something that is “activated” in a relationship. It can be taken for granted, unless there are some mental disorder, if you do things by yourself. If you freely decide to get belted when you are minor, then your parents have the legal right to challenge your chooses, but there is no consent issue here.

Sabina 2) In your opinion, can a minor who has reached the age of consent legally participate in BDSM practices? In my opinion yes, although I know this is rather frowned upon in the bdsm community.

Absolutely no! No bdsm for minors! Bdsm is alternative sexuality, must be explored when you have the emotional maturity to understand it. Be aware that we are talking about power dynamics.
I avoid doing things with young people, normally I avoid anyone younger than 24, but it’s a personal choose. No serious bdsmer will ever do this.
Being OT in this forum, if you write me (mail in profile) I can give you more information

youdontknowme

Milord Absolutely no! No bdsm for minors! Bdsm is alternative sexuality, must be explored when you have the emotional maturity to understand it. Be aware that we are talking about power dynamics.
I avoid doing things with young people, normally I avoid anyone younger than 24, but it’s a personal choose. No serious bdsmer will ever do this.

Alternative or no is a conformist statement, but the thing about the power dynamics is definitely something to keep in mind. I would argue that it is none of our business what teens do among each other (aside from parents keeping an eye out for any signs of physical harm or emotional distress of course, but that is not specific to BDSM), but adults should not be enabling minors to engage in BDSM play, nor engage with them even in cases where age-of-consent law would normally allow such interactions. Because the power dynamics just are not there.

For example, German law technically allows for 14-year-olds to engage sexually with people over 21, provided that the older person "does not take advantage of the minor's limited ability to sexually self-determine". I would argue that the power exchange nature of BDSM definitely makes it a lot more difficult to avoid the limits of a teenager's sexual autonomy and maturity, so even ignoring intentional abuse/grooming for now, domming a person who is generally assumed to be of limited maturity to consent is a can of worms I would encourage any adult to stay away from. And subbing to one? Have you seen teenagers? You really want to put yourself at their mercy?

Sabina

Milord No serious bdsmer will ever do this.

Yes, I know. My parents are deep into the subject so the views of the BDSM community are well known to me. However, I was more concerned with a legal assessment (e.g. from the point of view of Italian law) than a purely ethical one.

youdontknowme And subbing to one? Have you seen teenagers? You really want to put yourself at their mercy

I was immediately reminded of a meme popular in Polish fetish circles: a sarcastically smiling Johnny Depp as Mad Hatter and the caption 'So you say you're a 19-year-old dominatrix?' 😆

Sasha

Ines I agree, forcing this is always wrong.

Milord

youdontknowme For the sake of clarity. We talk about BDSM if there is a power dynamic, otherwise it's kinky play. Everything is fine of course, it's not that one is better than the other, bu they are different
Teen with teen can of course do what they want. But if someone asks my opinion (unfortunately it happens very often) I enforce the point that no minor should do BDSM. I'm no god and I can't do anything to prevent. But at least in my community I try to inform that it's not a great idea.

In Italy age is 14, for some situation 16, but it's not that simple.

Thanks for all your comments. Really appreciated.

Milord

Ines sorry for OT, there is a way to talk with you privately. Of course if you want. Feel free to ignore this message.

Ines

Milord

Even if I do not practice it, I am not interested in it and I do not have idea about it, in my "founded" opinion, you are right.

Tjc

youdontknowme But if every single one of these conditions is met:
the wearer wants to use the belt for a goal other than sexual play
they do not trust themself to not abuse the standard consent rules of sexual interactions
the wearer fully trusts the keyholder in having their well-being at heart
there is a clearly definied maximum timespan before the consent question has to be resolved (which involves ending the current keyholding arrangement if there is any doubt about consent at the end of it)
that timespan is only as long as it needs to be to address the wearer's self-trust issues
the wearer enters that agreement freely, enthusiastically and fully informed about what it entails

I believe a cooldown period may be acceptable.

I consented (actually asked) to wear a belt but also specifically asked for a 10 day cool down period, no matter what (except medical issue, obviously). If I ask to be out, I do not regard being told to wait 10 days as a violation of my consent, even though it would seem that I have revoked it. This is, I think, a tricky issue in a lot of these KH relationships. I think the same situation would apply to someone under 18 who CHOOSES to wear a belt for a reasonable goal but then asks to be released. Consent can be for a specific purpose. I think some may not agree with this. In any event, imposed (not suggested or offered) chastity belts are wrong for any age but especially minors.

Angelina

youdontknowme That is the thing. Of the people here who had been locked up before their 18th birthday, none of them want their parents sent to gaol. That is what makes the issue so much more complicated. They love their parents, but not that one thing their parents do.

Getting the authorities involved becomes a much easier thing when the expected outcome is actually the outcome you want, but for most less-than-voluntary wearers who posted here, that is not the case.

Thank you, I think that is the main point that also describes my life perfectly 🙂

youdontknowme

Angelina You and Lukas were the people I had on the front of my mind when I wrote that.

Milord

Sabina
It’s too tricky
In Italy it’s not technically illegal to do bdsm with a minor, but if he decide to sue you, it’s very difficult to prove your consent
In sexual activity, lack of consent must be proved by the victim, but if you are in a bdsm scene, consent must be proven by the dominant part
If it’s a minor, consent is even more difficult to prove

Angelina

Milord

as far as i can tell for germany there is no difference between the legal conditions for sexual acts and bdsm

Laura

I can take an oath anywhere that I wear the belt by consent and voluntarily

MissBlossom

Laura I can take an oath anywhere that I wear the belt by consent and voluntarily

What happens to your credibility as a witness when the prosecutor presents this quote to the court?

Laura Even if somebody asks me I would say that's my choice and only parents know that's actually not.

Laura

MissBlossom That statement was from 4 years ago. And it's different now

MissBlossom

Laura That statement is from 4 years ago. It's different now

What changed? Have your parents agreed that you may withdraw your consent and you have chosen not to?

You used to say that they would make you stay in the belt even if you moved out.

Laura

MissBlossom What changed?

Age. More independence

MissBlossom Have your parents agreed that you may withdraw your consent and you have chosen not to?

Correct. Although not wearing a belt is still not appreciated

MissBlossom You used to say that they would make you stay in the belt even if you moved out.

I only said that moving out wouldn't change the status, not "make"

Milord

Angelina interesting point. If someone has been convinced and then gives her consent, I don't see any major problems. I'm sorry to say this, but Dorothea herself wrote that she was convinced, and she's not wearing the belt yet, so she didn't say yes or no

I take this post from @angelina in another thread because I think that it is an important point. As some of us pointed out, consent is very tricky when required by someone young and inexperienced from a parent, and often consent is not enough. For example you can’t consent on giving up your freedom. But more, you have to be totally aware of consequences, because otherwise consent is vitiated, and so null. Consent is by law a very complex concept. I wrote in the beginning the list of characteristics of consent, if not legal (difficult to know every law of the world) but at least moral.

Sasha

Milord As you said, consent is tricky, but there’s at least 2 rights you can easily consent to revoke in US law. The first being my 5th amendment right to not self incriminate. I have the right to say nothing and not answer questions. But as easily as answering after being read my rights, that protection no longer applies and what I said can be used against me. You’ve likely heard the Maranda warning in cop shows. Same as your right to legal counsel.

I can also waive my right to search and seizure by simply saying yes. The police can’t randomly search but the individual can allow it.
Those constitutional rights can be waived with a simple yes, but I can take them back just as easily. I’d imagine there are similar concepts in European law too.
So as you said consent and waiving rights is a tricky subject. And those are protected rights in our constitution, other things would probably come down to what a specific law says and previous case law, which itself is a interesting subject

Angelina

Milord

i admit, it's a very difficult topic. of course, someone who has been convinced by their parents is not someone who is 100% convinced of the belt, like @Ines for example. there are also some cases here where girls wear the belt because they get something else in return. in general, however, i don't see any big problems as long as wearing the belt has advantages and not wearing it has no disadvantages. i don't really want to judge whether someone can make the decision, because i don't know them personally.
When in doubt, I always have to assume that this decision can be made by the girl and that she has the necessary mental maturity for it, otherwise further discussions would make no sense. At least that's what I believe as long as I'm convinced otherwise.
Legally, you can use the age of consent as a guide, in Germany there is a strict age of consent at 14 and under special conditions at 16 and I always say that if someone is legally allowed to have sex, they can also have the right to give up this freedom, but I am generally the same Opinion to always look at the individual case because the state usually doesn't have absolute wisdom, especially when it comes to such a sensitive topic

Milord

Sasha not sure what you mean, but will try
Not all rights are equals, there are rights you can renounce too (for example, beside the one you says, right to correspondence secrecy, you can renounce to) and others, few, that you can’t renounce or revoke. They are absolute. Right to life or to freedom. So consent to remove them is a very serious thing. And while for other rights once removed they are gone, undisposable one are always there, and consent can be revoked anytime, another thing that it’s not compatible with chastity and key holding (there is cool-down and all). Let’s face it, a full consent here is the only things that matters

youdontknowme

Sasha I mean, in the case of both of those rights, if you are consenting to waive those rights temporarily, and then try to reassert them, the deed is already done. That is very different from bein restraint, in which case keeping your restraints locked after you no longer consent to wearing them would involve a continued act of restraining you.

WriterAlexis

Sasha

Here's a right we Americans yield daily: privacy.

No, I am not talking about my shower breaks, I'm talking about every single website cookie and each app we install, the EULA says our data can be used, stored, shared, sold, and otherwise commodified from now until forever. Unless you live in California, our privacy rights are nothing at all like Europe's.

Sasha

Milord Pointing out that you can consent to giving up even constitutional rights, under certain circumstances.
Making the subject of consent and legality rather complicated at times. And at times it may very well come down to how a judge at some point interpreted a law (we call this case law)
Sadly nothing is ever black and white

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