Just chatting

Avery

youdontknowme I could not imagine Senator Sanders voting alongside the Republicans

Nor Sinema either.

Sin

At least it will make it easy to spot the republicans on Putin's payroll.

Jen

Nah blackmail isn't it

curious

youdontknowme One, the US two-party system means that the largest party automatically has a full majority

However nothing in the US constitution says that it has to be a two-party system.
In an imaginary world it could well happen that most conservative democrats and the non-trumpist and a bit more progressive republicans join into a new middle field party. Nothing would stand in the way of this happening.

With partisan rules you are right. The speaker of the house has the right to bring bills to the floor of the house for a vote (or not to do so, effectively blocking legislation). While many scholars and I would consider this an abuse of the position, it is within the power of the position and has been done over and over again, yes.

I was not trying to state that German and US political systems are completely the same with just different names. I was simply trying to help a young person to get a better (but admittedly still incomplete) understanding.

youdontknowme

curious However nothing in the US constitution says that it has to be a two-party system.

You could say that the first-past-the-post system encourages a two-party system by making it difficult for new parties to establish themselves. In Britain the party landscape is somewhat more varied, but except for the Lib Dems, most of the significant third parties are regional players.

But no matter how much or how little the constitution encourages it, it is there, it is culturally entrenched, and I do not see it changing any time soon with all the tribalism going on at the moment.

Avery

curious In an imaginary world it could well happen that most conservative democrats and the non-trumpist and a bit more progressive republicans join into a new middle-field party. Nothing would stand in the way of this happening.

Very well might happen soon. If Ron DeSantis gets in with his Trump-like ideas (e.g. shipping illegal immigrants from his state to Martha's Vineyard in my state) I wouldn't be surprised at all if liberal-leaning Republicans and conservative Democrats banded against him to have more of a voice.

hanna_anders

youdontknowme In Britain the party landscape is somewhat more varied, but except for the Lib Dems, most of the significant third parties are regional players.

The problem in the UK is that population numbers in a seat vary hugely, and the first past the post system gives us some very strange results. In the last election the SNP MPs won with on average 25000 votes. There are 59 SNP MPs in Westminster, they got about 1.3 million votes.
There is 1 Green Party MP, they got about 900,000 votes.
The current government has an 80 seat majority, which means they can do pretty much as they like. They had 43% of the vote.

Philip

hanna_anders in the UK we might as well just have one party. With the SNP taking pretty much all the seats is scotland makes it practically impossible for Labour to be elected. Combine that with the effects northern ireland has with the unionist parties always supporting the Conservatives and sinn fein not taking their seats pretty much grantee a tory government.

Angelina

Avery

curious

ok, so the speaker is the american counterpart to Bärbel Bas in germany. i made a slight mistake and thought that the counterpart to the "Fraktionsvorsitzender" was meant.

youdontknowme In Germany, there have been several cases where the largest party was not part of the majority coalition, but still had the office of Bundestagspräsident.

like the later president Karl Carstens (CDU) during the time of Chancellor helmut schmidt

youdontknowme

Angelina i made a slight mistake and thought that the counterpart to the "Fraktionsvorsitzender" was meant.

Yeah, those roles are more akin to majority and minority leader. Not a 1:1 mapping since the US legislature does not do coalitions to the extent Germany does (there are no house representatives that do not belong to the two major parties at the moment, and all independent senators are as close to Democrats as the CSU is to the CDU), but probably the closest fit to that you can get.

But yeah, Bärbel Bas would be our counterpart to Kevin McCarthy right now. Only that I expect him to be a lot more partisan in the way he runs the house than her.

Angelina like the later president Karl Carstens (CDU) during the time of Chancellor helmut schmidt

Yeah, the Brandt/Schmidt era had several Union "speakers" since the SPD majority relied on FDP votes and CDU/CSU were the plurality group.

curious

Angelina so the speaker is the american counterpart to Bärbel Bas in germany

I don't follow German politics that closely as to know who currently is in that position. Why would I, when I am not living there. But of course I still know how the system works.

Angelina

youdontknowme Only that I expect him to be a lot more partisan in the way he runs the house than her.

I once read that he would still remain majority leader, so it would be as if "Bundestagspräsident" and "Fraktionsvorsitzender" were the same person, then it is clear that he is more partisan.

youdontknowme but considering nobody gives a damn about who our president is when the chancellor handles most of the governing,

because both the president and the Bundestag president are purely representative offices in the public perception, but I can tell you that even 50% of Germans would not know if I asked who the Bundestag president is.

curious If I was living in Germany of course, I should know and care who is part of 'my' government.

it would be nice, most people don't even know which politicians are from which party.

youdontknowme

curious It is formally the second highest office in the country after the President, but considering nobody gives a damn about who our president is when the chancellor handles most of the governing, nobody can be blamed for not knowing about her.

Avery

youdontknowme the chancellor

I was just reading about Merkel visiting Bush the younger in 2006. She lasted a long time compared to our people.

curious

youdontknowme
I am aware of the position of that office, however, I live in Switzerland not Germany. So giving - as you call it - a damn about who holds that office currently is from where I am perfectly OK. If I was living in Germany of course, I should know and care who is part of 'my' government.

youdontknowme

Sin find it somewhat fascinating that that sign is basically designed to be plausibly deniable as an OK sign, and that displaying it in a less overt way sort of makes the message more clear.

Avery I was just reading about Merkel visiting Bush the younger in 2006. She lasted a long time compared to our people.

Yeah, we do not have term limits for chancellor, only for president, who can serve two terms at most. And experience and not rocking the boat are big pluses on the conservative side of the spectrum, so Adenauer, Kohl and Merkel each had long tenures of four terms each.

Sin

Speaking of US politics... I see George Santos flashed a white power symbol in parliament.

I'm not really surprised given that these people will do anything to "own the libs", but regardless of your political persuasion, the fact that this is even remotely accepted by an elected representative shows just how far US civil society has descended.

Avery

Sin shows just how far US civil society has descended.

Nah, the January 6, 2020 riots, when thugs invaded the Capitol Building, overpowered Capitol police, and chased the vice president and his guards into a bomb shelter is a better example.

youdontknowme

curious Yeah, only two reasons the world knows so much about about US leaders other than President and maybe Secretary of State is because the current dysfunctional situation has such global impacts and the internet can be very US-centric. I assume German speakers outside of Germany might be exposed to some of the bigger gaffes from our politicians, but all the stuff that works as expected gets fairly little attention.

Meanwhile, I would assume that if you asked Americans about who the president of Germany is, the vast majority of responses wozld be empty or nonsensical, and almost everyone who did give a sensible response would name a current or former chancellor.

curious

youdontknowme
My view on that is:
Knowing how the political system and government in the most powerful / influential country on this planet works is part of general knowledge that I think everyone should have.
Who is in a given position at a given point in time, is something completely different.
It might or might not be relevant for a better understanding of the day to day political issues but is definitely not part of general knowledge that you would expect or at least hope everyone to have.

curious

Angelina it would be nice, most people don't even know which politicians are from which party.

Which again is telling by itself.
Parties in Germany are no longer the defining factor around politics. It seems rather pretty much all the same and only the degree of self-dealing and dishonesty varies.

If politicians believe and act like there is one set of rules for them and a different one for ordinary people, the system is on it's way to failure. And I am afraid, I see exactly this development in Germany and even more so in the US.

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