Church and Chastiy

Foxies

Max9 As we should have solved that issue now, let's go back to the orinial topic su this thread.
Which is the relation of religion and chastity.

Smiles ... so you want the last word? That sort of goes back to the point I made to curious - that I want to continue to fight for my point of view since I believe that your view is toxic to the world. Thus, I will do my best to see your expressed viewpoints, do not have the last word.

Max9 When I bake you a cake, you can find out with natural sciences when it was made and how it was made

When find a cake you are right, I CAN find through the scientific method of when and how it was made. But you are wrong when you state ... I cannot find out ...

Max9 why it was made or who made it.

Science (with admitted some effort) can allow me to find out who made it (basically a CSI type of problem and the police do it all the time) and then I can question who made it and find out why. If it was you who baked me the cake I can simply ask you. Assuming it mattered to me there are all sorts of scientific methods (tricks if you like) I can use to assess your veracity. Sadly, when I ask God (in English) for an answer to a question like why, I find him/her/(they?) strangely silent.

I find your questions about why I should do certain things insulting, not least because of the implications that people who don't have religious ideologies, do not care about other people. It is precisely because I DO care that I answered curious's question as to why I fight.

As for living in Sodom or Gomorrah - what was it really like? What happened to it? I mean what really happened to it? Were you there? Maybe it was a fun place to live? I understand that archeologists believe they have identified certain ruins that some believe are the remains of cities described by those names in the bible. I am not sure they have found the exact causes of their abandonment.

Since this is a thread about chastity, I would like it known that I believe it utter nonsense that any God(s) give a hoot about chastity. As for people using their religion to cajole, persuade, browbeat, or force others into mechanical chastity is quite abhorrent to me - possibly because I do care for others despite my lack of religion.

As for your insult that I have no idea of what I am talking about ... I wonder how you know such detail information about my education that would allow you to make such an outrageous statement?

Still, I don't mind insults from people of any and all religious persuasions. I am used to them 🤣

Max9

Foxies when you say the christian religion causes harm, then you don't know what it's about. It's like saying science is fantasy and feelding insulted for being critisized for it. Natural sciences are as few a miracle as it is God.
The christian religion wants a loving and caring relationship of all people to each other.There's nothing toxic about that.

Now let's finally end this dispute as it won't have a usefull ending for any of us.

Foxies

Max9
Christian religion, by its very existence causes a great deal of harm, even if it doesn't teach harm. Read your Christian bible and you will see how it preaches racism where one group of humans is set above another. All religions have this type of poison where their defense preaches harm against others who oppose them. Your bible is full of it, though I admit this is not the exclusive domain of Christianity. I know you are fond of insulting me by saying that I am ignorant of your faith and indeed I am sure I am ignorant of many things. However, I will politely suggest you look in the mirror and see how your words might apply to yourself.
As for ending the dispute - you first! And for what it's worth, I agree 100% with Curious last post.
While there is any chance you can change anyone's mind, I shall be there to offer a counter argument. Just sayin - 🤣

Angelina

Max9 The christian religion wants a loving and caring relationship of all people to each other.There's nothing toxic about that.

i agree in part, the problem is the people who use religion as an excuse for crime because it was done in the name of god. to be fair this applies to almost all religions.
the question that comes to my mind is this. if the christian religion is based on love and mutual understanding, i wonder why my deeply christian grandmother still has problems accepting that i have a homosexual relationship? and no she has nothing against my girlfriend, she would have a problem with any other girl too

Sin

Max9 most laws in the world are based on gods teachings and the Decalogue.

No they're not. Did you see my post about Hinduism and Budhism? Last I checked India and China were quite populous. Fact is there is a giant chunk of the world that has absolutely no relationship with Abrahamic religions whatsoever, much less Christianity.

Max9 Saying religious teachings cause pain in the world is absurd and perverts the wise teachings of God.

ISIS? The Taliban? Sticking with your religion, have a read about indigenous genocide at the hands of the catholic education system in Canada and Australia. It's harrowing.

Why don't you try to live in an anarchist world then?

Absence of (your) god does not equate to anarchy. Morality and decent human values exist without it. Do you consider Japan an anarchist nation?

Max9 Why don't you try to live in a society where nobody care about other people? Something god taught us

I lived in Laos and I can tell you from experience that they are the most caring, peaceful people in the world, and they wouldn't know the first thing about the teachings of Jesus. Buddhist society is literally all about caring for others and the world around you. Much moreso than Christianity.

Rina

Sin Tim Minchin also wrote a great one called "The Pope Song"

I really like that song.

Catholics aren't sole branch of Christianity that is corrupted with Cardinals / Bishops / Priests abusing children sexually, but also Protestants.

I keep hearing news about child sex abuse cases in protestant churches especially Southern Baptists, and I really feel like their attitude towards LGBTQ+ people are kind of projection.

I think the reason why these abuse happen frequently but covered up for longer is because in general these people in high position in churches tend to easily gain trust from kids and kids' parents. Many would think "what kind of wrong thing would they do if they are devout religious people?", and that would lead people to put their guards down.

Sin

Rina Many would think "what kind of wrong thing would they do if they are devout religious people?", and that would lead people to put their guards down.

Well put.

Sin

@Max9 I'd like to make an observation... Please don't take this is an attack, I'm genuinely interested in your point of view and I will absolutely defend your right to believe in God and follow your religion. It's possible to have a polite discussion with opposing viewpoints.... @Foxies is very good at it! But I'm genuinely curious about something.

A year or two ago in this very thread you said morality can't exist without Jesus, and I posted exactly the same argument as I did just prior. I think I used Asia or indiginous Australia as the example. So when someone points something out that is different from what you know, do you find it interesting?

You seem to have doubled down on your argument, even though you know there are real world examples that show you're incorrect. That's not to say your belief in God is wrong, just that your perception of the world around you is perhaps limited, and the influence of your particular belief system is smaller than you realise.

Does that make you ponder things? Do you feel negative feelings (guilt for example) when you're presented with knowledge that's contrary to what you've learned so far?

Personally I like being wrong, or rather, I find it interesting when I learn something new. It's one of the reasons why I travel so much, because I like seeing things that blow my mind a little bit.

What do you think of Japan, for example? They have no knowledge or influence from Jesus whatsoever, yet they're one of the most polite, functional and well ordered societies on the planet. Do you really think they're lawless or anarchist? Do you accept that morality and decent human values exist without Jesus, or do you still think I'm wrong? Does it make you want to go to Japan (or Myanmar or Peru or Fiji or...) and see what it's all about? And will you still make the same argument in a year's time even though there is absolutely evidence to the contrary?

Again, I'm not saying God isn't real or that you shouldn't follow your religion. I just want to know how or why you block things out when you hear things that you disagree with. Did you ever ponder my examples from last time, or can you just shut down that inquisitive line of thinking in your head? ( I'm sorry, that's a lot of questions!).

Rina

Sin What do you think of Japan, for example? They have no knowledge or influence from Jesus whatsoever, yet they're one of the most polite, functional and well ordered societies on the planet. Do you really think they're lawless or anarchist? Do you accept that morality and decent human values exist without Jesus, or do you still think I'm wrong?

@Max9

In the Philippines 80% are Catholics but has lots of problem with crime and drug abuse. Lots of wealth in the Philippines is controlled by handful of families.

Many Central / South American countries have drug cartels and corrupt government while most are Catholics.

US South has more issue with crime, poverty and health than other states, while these states are called the "Bible Belt".

Afghanistan is ravaged by Talibans, some Middle Eastern countries they fight over which branch of Islam is "right", Saudi and other Gulf countries have severe issue with depriving women of their fundamental rights.

Religion doesn't magically make people better. Athiesm / secularism doesn't make someone bad either. It's more about systematic issues like corruption, greediness, and discrimination. But trying to find the answer from the religion haven't worked so well throughout the history.

Andrew

Angelina i wonder why my deeply christian grandmother still has problems accepting that i have a homosexual relationship?

This is quite obvious - basically all branches of Christianity in their traditional forms have a very negative attitude to homosexuality as a sin of Sodom, for which, according to the Bible, the death penalty is due (for men):
"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13)

Rina

Andrew "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13)

Leviticus also bans eating pork and tattoos too, and every time I see homophobic christiams refer that I always feel they just selectively bring things up, most of them eat pork and some even have tattoos on them. Manny Pacquiao is an example of that, who referred to Leviticus to spread his homophobic views but also has tattoos on his body.

Angelina

Andrew

thank you, now i know again why i can't find anything good in most religions. preaching love in the front and cursing all those who live outside the mainstream in the back, this double standard is unbearable for me.
the same applies to the topic of the thread, what exactly is with masturbation? is it now allowed or should we live chastely. many biblical figures had several women and that is then ok, but otherwise just don't touch? that is for me just not what corresponds to my values

Andrew

Rina What you have pointed out has a deeper and more complicated theological dimension. It concerns what Christians are bound by the Old Covenant and what is not. Basically, Christianity rejects the Old Covenant in various ways, building on the New one. At the same time, it adopted moral norms from the Old (for example incest, homosexuality) and rejected purely ritual norms (pork, tattoos).

Ines

Last warning to everyone...
I am against religion thread as I am against political threads, this community has showed that can not have such debates without a poisonous environment.... however I will keep this thread open, but, please, do not branch original target.
If you remain talking about theology, I will put the political tag.
Thanks.

Andrew

Ines If you remain talking about theology,

I understand your concerns about the quality of the discussion, but it is impossible to discuss the views of the churches on chastity without addressing the theological basis of the issue. It is one thing to conduct pointless disputes on the forum about the existence (or not) of God/gods, where no one will convince anyone, but another thing to discuss the theological foundations of the sexual ethics of a particular religion

Ines

Andrew

But it is degenerating, as everyone of these controversial topics in the forum, and I do not want a new South African thread here.

Sin

Ines I think everyone is being quite respectful and it's managing to stay on topic pretty well.

Ines

Sin

Yes, I agree, (and I am bit surprised), you are being extremely polite, for that the thread is still open.
I only say that you are deviating of intended topic.
In fact, I will change the tittle.

Andrew

Angelina

The issue of religion and masturbation is quite a complicated topic. There is basically nothing in the Bible about this except for Onan's story, which is ambiguous. Traditionally interpreted as a condemnation of masturbation, nowadays it is rather assumed that it describes interrupted intercourse. In general, Jewish sexual ethics tended to become radicalized - what was once allowed (polygamy) later became forbidden. Many factors could have influenced this, especially relations with the nations surrounding the Jews, from which they wanted to distinguish themselves, or vice versa, from which they drew some ideas. Christianity took over much of the Jewish approach to sex, contrasting it with Roman sexual promiscuity. Interestingly, masturbation itself was not a major problem until the 18th century - Christian churches condemned it as a violation of the commandment "thou shall not commit adultery" (any form of sexual expression other than between a man and a woman within marriage was considered such a violation), but in fact few people except for the clergy, this problem was of concern, especially in Catholic countries where the gap between the official teaching of the Church and practice was huge. The paradox is that it was only the Age of Enlightenment (quite strongly rejecting religion) that made masturbation a kind of secular sin against health, which later all churches eagerly used to support their teaching.

Foxies

Andrew

Good informative post - and a good reason to keep this thread active (pokes tongue out an @Ines 🤣 ).
I do find it fascinating how more than few people react to something that evolved, and it is information that is fundamental to people making wise decisions for themselves. It is still a good idea to fact check though, especially before making irreversible decisions.

Angelina

Andrew

thanks for the explanations 🙂
it is always exciting to see my grandma and my father in the discussion when it comes to my chastity belt. both think it is right that i wear the belt, my father is like me atheist and my grandma very christian and thinks masturbation is a sin. both act from different reasons but come to the same conclusion

Ines

Foxies
Since people are being extremely polite about the topic, it could remain open.

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