Church and Chastiy

Rina

Sin What do you think of Japan, for example? They have no knowledge or influence from Jesus whatsoever, yet they're one of the most polite, functional and well ordered societies on the planet. Do you really think they're lawless or anarchist? Do you accept that morality and decent human values exist without Jesus, or do you still think I'm wrong?

@Max9

In the Philippines 80% are Catholics but has lots of problem with crime and drug abuse. Lots of wealth in the Philippines is controlled by handful of families.

Many Central / South American countries have drug cartels and corrupt government while most are Catholics.

US South has more issue with crime, poverty and health than other states, while these states are called the "Bible Belt".

Afghanistan is ravaged by Talibans, some Middle Eastern countries they fight over which branch of Islam is "right", Saudi and other Gulf countries have severe issue with depriving women of their fundamental rights.

Religion doesn't magically make people better. Athiesm / secularism doesn't make someone bad either. It's more about systematic issues like corruption, greediness, and discrimination. But trying to find the answer from the religion haven't worked so well throughout the history.

Angelina

Max9 The christian religion wants a loving and caring relationship of all people to each other.There's nothing toxic about that.

i agree in part, the problem is the people who use religion as an excuse for crime because it was done in the name of god. to be fair this applies to almost all religions.
the question that comes to my mind is this. if the christian religion is based on love and mutual understanding, i wonder why my deeply christian grandmother still has problems accepting that i have a homosexual relationship? and no she has nothing against my girlfriend, she would have a problem with any other girl too

Andrew

Angelina i wonder why my deeply christian grandmother still has problems accepting that i have a homosexual relationship?

This is quite obvious - basically all branches of Christianity in their traditional forms have a very negative attitude to homosexuality as a sin of Sodom, for which, according to the Bible, the death penalty is due (for men):
"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13)

Rina

Andrew "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13)

Leviticus also bans eating pork and tattoos too, and every time I see homophobic christiams refer that I always feel they just selectively bring things up, most of them eat pork and some even have tattoos on them. Manny Pacquiao is an example of that, who referred to Leviticus to spread his homophobic views but also has tattoos on his body.

Angelina

Andrew

thank you, now i know again why i can't find anything good in most religions. preaching love in the front and cursing all those who live outside the mainstream in the back, this double standard is unbearable for me.
the same applies to the topic of the thread, what exactly is with masturbation? is it now allowed or should we live chastely. many biblical figures had several women and that is then ok, but otherwise just don't touch? that is for me just not what corresponds to my values

Andrew

Rina What you have pointed out has a deeper and more complicated theological dimension. It concerns what Christians are bound by the Old Covenant and what is not. Basically, Christianity rejects the Old Covenant in various ways, building on the New one. At the same time, it adopted moral norms from the Old (for example incest, homosexuality) and rejected purely ritual norms (pork, tattoos).

Ines

Last warning to everyone...
I am against religion thread as I am against political threads, this community has showed that can not have such debates without a poisonous environment.... however I will keep this thread open, but, please, do not branch original target.
If you remain talking about theology, I will put the political tag.
Thanks.

Andrew

Ines If you remain talking about theology,

I understand your concerns about the quality of the discussion, but it is impossible to discuss the views of the churches on chastity without addressing the theological basis of the issue. It is one thing to conduct pointless disputes on the forum about the existence (or not) of God/gods, where no one will convince anyone, but another thing to discuss the theological foundations of the sexual ethics of a particular religion

Ines

Andrew

But it is degenerating, as everyone of these controversial topics in the forum, and I do not want a new South African thread here.

Sin

Ines I think everyone is being quite respectful and it's managing to stay on topic pretty well.

Ines

Sin

Yes, I agree, (and I am bit surprised), you are being extremely polite, for that the thread is still open.
I only say that you are deviating of intended topic.
In fact, I will change the tittle.

Andrew

Angelina

The issue of religion and masturbation is quite a complicated topic. There is basically nothing in the Bible about this except for Onan's story, which is ambiguous. Traditionally interpreted as a condemnation of masturbation, nowadays it is rather assumed that it describes interrupted intercourse. In general, Jewish sexual ethics tended to become radicalized - what was once allowed (polygamy) later became forbidden. Many factors could have influenced this, especially relations with the nations surrounding the Jews, from which they wanted to distinguish themselves, or vice versa, from which they drew some ideas. Christianity took over much of the Jewish approach to sex, contrasting it with Roman sexual promiscuity. Interestingly, masturbation itself was not a major problem until the 18th century - Christian churches condemned it as a violation of the commandment "thou shall not commit adultery" (any form of sexual expression other than between a man and a woman within marriage was considered such a violation), but in fact few people except for the clergy, this problem was of concern, especially in Catholic countries where the gap between the official teaching of the Church and practice was huge. The paradox is that it was only the Age of Enlightenment (quite strongly rejecting religion) that made masturbation a kind of secular sin against health, which later all churches eagerly used to support their teaching.

Foxies

Andrew

Good informative post - and a good reason to keep this thread active (pokes tongue out an @Ines 🤣 ).
I do find it fascinating how more than few people react to something that evolved, and it is information that is fundamental to people making wise decisions for themselves. It is still a good idea to fact check though, especially before making irreversible decisions.

Angelina

Andrew

thanks for the explanations 🙂
it is always exciting to see my grandma and my father in the discussion when it comes to my chastity belt. both think it is right that i wear the belt, my father is like me atheist and my grandma very christian and thinks masturbation is a sin. both act from different reasons but come to the same conclusion

Ines

Foxies
Since people are being extremely polite about the topic, it could remain open.

curious

Angelina
So your grandma knows you are belted?
Is she your mother´s or father`s mother?

If your father was for some time not available as keyholder (e. g. accident and hospitalised for some time), would your grandma take over as keyholder or how is that handled in your family?

Andrew

Angelina my grandma very christian

Catholic or protestant?

Angelina

curious

she is my father's mother and no she would not be considered as a keyholder because she has completely different reasons than my father. the belt is his business, if something bad should happen to him, that would also mean the end of the belt.

Andrew

catholic

curious

Angelina she has completely different reasons than my father

What are her reasons why she wants you in the belt versus the reasons your father has?
How would that change the situation?

Angelina

curious What are her reasons why she wants you in the belt versus the reasons your father has?

she thinks masturbation is a sin, while my father wants the belt so i can focus on "important things" in life and enter marriage as a responsible virgin. the difference is simple: i don't like my father's reasons, but i understand them. as an atheist, i don't understand my grandma's reasons, i don't care if i go to hell for masturbation because i don't believe in it anyway 😂

Avery

Angelina my father wants the belt so i can focus on "important things" in life

If this is true, why is he letting you get married at twenty? Do you not have more schooling left after next summer? Or does he not consider school important?

Andrew

Angelina i don't like my father's reasons, but i understand them. as an atheist, i don't understand my grandma's reasons

Paradoxically, for me as a non-believer, your grandmother's position (for whom masturbation is a violation of the "law of God" taught by the Church, which is not subject to rational evaluation) is much more understandable than your father's, whose motivation is questionable from a purely common sense point of view. How is the belt supposed to teach you (sexual) responsibility if it takes away your ability to make any decisions about it? Does the belt keep you "focused"? In the same way, one could say that chaining a student to a desk with a book on it will allow him to focus on his studies. All the belt actually does is protect your virginity. The (rather rhetorical) question is only whether such a drastic measure is justified for this purpose, especially in the context of the lack of voluntariness.

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