Hymen repair surgery and virginity testing banned in UK

Sin

I'll just leave this here...
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-59960177

It should be noted that the examination has no scientific merit or clinical indication – the appearance of a hymen is not a reliable indication of intercourse and there is no known examination that can prove a history of vaginal intercourse.

It is an outdated methodology practiced by people lacking sufficient medical or scientific education. Like FGM and honour killings, virginity testing belongs in the dark ages and deserves to be treated as such.

Ines

Sin
Sin
I do not agree fully, I mean, obviously make it to arrested women is a clear abuse, but in other situations it is not.
I think both situations are quite different, since virginity test can be valid, both in families and by the girl herself. With young onvicts, not arrested but in the jail, it should be mandatory, as forensic proof that they have not suffered abuse and that, in the sentence, they do not spend their time doing inappropriate things.
That said, when the test is done in a forced way, as they say in the link, to women without a judicial conviction, it is obvious that, like all abuse, it must be outlawed.
In families, there may be a use that constitutes a violation, but I do not think that all cases are the same.
Regarding reconstruction, I still see it as more appropriate, I don't understand why they want to ban what they don't like.
If I had an accident and lost my hymen, I would love to be able to offer it to my man.
I don't know why they want to ban it.

Laura

Sin It is an outdated methodology practiced by people lacking sufficient medical or scientific education

But cultural traditions

Jen

Ines With young onvicts, not arrested but in the jail, it should be mandatory, as forensic proof that they have not suffered abuse and that, in the sentence, they do not spend their time doing inappropriate things.

Ines in the sentence, they do not spend their time doing inappropriate things.

I hate this comment and I think it is wrong. Lots of very wrong comments are posted here but not normally by you. Criminals in prison are still people. Their punishment is to be locked away from society not dehumanised. Not forced into mandatory hymen checks.

Sin

Laura Exactly... According to the World Health Organisation, “virginity” is a social, cultural and religious construct with neither medical nor scientific basis.

If you can have an intact hymen after sex, or alternatively, a torn hymen prior to sex, it begs the question... What's the point?

Joh

Laura But cultural traditions

A tradition which has the same result as when you flip a coin. It can bring shame on a woman who has not had sex.

Ines I think that it is something very valuable,

No one is disputing your view here. That is not the point. The virginity test is unreliable and this is the problem.

Laura In my opinion, it's not a government's business.

If this leads to exclusion, psychological problems, suicides or crimes, it is the state's task to do something about it.

Ines

Sin
I do not agree totally, of course accident are possible, but they are not the majority.
However it is true that it is something totally liked to culture, I think that it is something very valuable, and some people do not take care at all.

Laura

Ines However it is true that it is something totally liked to culture, I think that it is something very valuable, and some people do not take care at all.

In my opinion, it's not a government's business.
However I support the hymen restoration ban

Ines

Laura

Laura In my opinion, it's not a government's business.

Exactly. You know I think that if nobody is being abused, then almost all is OK.
I think that government have to attack abuses, but banning an entire practice only because sometimes there are abuses is exaggerated.

@Sin opened a very interesting thread.

Sin

I understand the value of virginity on a personal level, but the point is it's very, very difficult to prove medically. Far harder than most people realise. Consider these findings...

In a study of 26 pregnant adolescents who reported sexual abuse, 22 participants (64%) had normal or nonspecific genital examination findings, eight (22%) had inconclusive findings, four (8%) had suggestive findings, and only two (6%) had findings of definite evidence of vaginal penetration.

In a case study involving 192 sex abuse victims and 200 virgins, presence or absence of 21 different hymenal or vulvar features was compared between the two groups, such as presence of hymenal tissue, transections, perforations, and notches. It was found that only 2.5% of physical exam findings were unique to the group with a history of penetration.

In a study of forensic physicians in Turkey, 66% of respondents reported that their findings from at least one virginity exam contradicted a recent virginity exam of the same patient.

In the US, 137 pediatric chief residents were asked to identify the hymen on a photograph of pediatric anatomy; only 64% were able to correctly identify the structure.

If 64℅ of senior doctors are unable to identify it, what hope does a police officer, a prison warden, a nurse or (heaven forbid), a groom's mother have of getting the diagnosis correct?

Source: https://reproductive-health-journal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12978-017-0319-0
(A systematic review of 1269 independent studies on virginity testing).

Ines

Sin
Well, it is very interesting, I have saved even some tables, but I see a major weakness, they do not talk about possible injuries of membrane due masturbation, and a great part of study is about consequences of forced virginity test, terrible and unjustified consequences.
However it is a massive study, I will read it later again.

Sin

Ines they do not talk about possible injuries of membrane due masturbation

There is a thesis for your final year of medicine! 😄

I can't speak for others but I would guess that most girls would just want to play the downstairs DJ, rather than explore the depths of the bat cave... especially at a young age.

Best to keep your nails short just in case though!

Laura

Joh the same result as when you flip a coin

You know, that it's not. Probability is much higher than 50%

Ines

Joh That is not the point. The virginity test is unreliable and this is the problem.

Well, I am a bit surprised about so much physicians neglecting identifying the membrane.
However, it is true that in Medicine School do not train us for this, and maybe is a practice for doctors with some experience in the field.
Obviously I can not I refute the study since I do not have any, but I do perceive a certain bias due to ideology.
When they talk about the failures of the doctors, they do not say whether it is due to lack of training or due to the effective lack of differences between the membranes, and, which may be logical out of modesty, possible habits that have destroyed the hymen of these women are not specified, also accepting their version without contrast.
The truth is that the fear with which they face the consequences of failing these tests is terrifying.
There is no right to that either.

Joh

Laura You know, that it's not. Probability is much higher than 50%

As far as I understood it right the probability for a wrong non-virginity result is much higher.

Kellog et al. studied a cohort in the United States with definitive evidence of previous vaginal penetration. In the study of 26 pregnant adolescents who reported sexual abuse, 22 participants (64%) had normal or nonspecific genital examination findings, eight (22%) had inconclusive findings, four (8%) had suggestive findings, and two (6%) had findings of definite evidence of vaginal penetration [23].

64% clearly wrong and only 8% rite that she is no virgin.

Ines

Jen
I guess we can not agree in everything...
Of course they are persons, but I am not talking about miss treat them but about certain discipline.
Time in jail can not be "leisure" time in my opinion.
I am a little surprised that you consider that because I didn't allow those habits in prison, I didn't consider those girls people.
I think you give much more importance to this point than me.

Jen

Ines I think you give much more importance to this point than me

It's the forced virginity checks - the idea of it is as bad as a forced chastity belt. Like I don't know and haven't thought about what's allowed in prison - but using it as an excuse for forced checks.. no no

Ines

Jen
It is good for girls too, in order to avoid abuses inside jail.
However, I think I give to this less importance than you, (I respect you approach).

Laura

Jen It's the forced virginity checks - the idea of it is as bad as a forced chastity belt.

You don't need a special law if you are forced. There are laws against it already

Angelina

First of all I would like to thank @Sin, a very interesting topic.

To be honest, I'm a little surprised because I think they're two completely different things. I personally don't think much of virginity tests because the hymen can also tear through other activities. but i think the restoration of the hymen is something that can also be beautiful. For example, if I were to be raped, I would like to have that option.

i think it's right when the state takes action, when it happens against a woman's will and in any case when violence plays a role, but what about those who want it voluntarily?

I see it frankly like @Laura. It's none of the state's business, it's not a medical issue, as has already been correctly written here, but an emotional one. I frankly find it disgusting when a government presumes to make decisions about a person's body

I could write more about this, but I don't want to write about being politically enraged again, so I'll leave it at that

Sin

Laura You don't need a special law if you are forced. There are laws against it already.

Often it's the police / military / jailers / employers who do it.