Keyholder welcome thread.

pestulens

youdontknowme that is how it's described In the paper as well.

Avery

youdontknowme I believe it is more that a female monkey usually only gets pregnant from one father at a time, so if she had sex with multiple males during her fertile days, their sperms compete inside her body. A male who masturbated would have fresher sperm, which gives his seed an edge in producing a child.

OK. So it's competition among the sperm, not directly among male monkeys.

curious

Avery
Not as simple as that.
First the male monkey would follow whatever the rituals are in that species to actually get to the point of intercourse with the female. Not every male monkey will succeed to that point with every female.
And then there is sperm motility. So essentially how quick sperms can move to meet and penetrate the egg.
But being early by - let´s say - 4 hours in terms of time of intercourse will of course give a huge head start.

pestulens

Avery think of it more like an arms race between the male monkeys to give their sperm the best chance of being the one to fertilize her. There are a bunch of different ways they go about increasing the chances and this is one of them.

Avery

pestulens think of it more like an arms race between the male monkeys to give their sperm the best chance of being the one to fertilize her. There are a bunch of different ways they go about increasing the chances and this is one of them.

OK, I see. Does this mean that the males (other than humans) have the intellectual capacity to figure this out (even if they don't understand all the details of why it works), or is it more a matter of an inborn drive or something else? If you think I'm beating this to death just ignore but studying primate behavior can sometimes have extensions to human behavior and I like to understand what's going on in guy's heads.

youdontknowme

Avery Does this mean that the males (other than humans) have the intellectual capacity to figure this out

I mean, if you look at humans, it is not exactly our intellectual capacity that leads us to have children... not only have our brains created methods deliberately designed to avoid having children without cutting back on our sexual urges, but family sizes are shrinking and we males are not exactly known for being at the top of our mental capacity when reproductive urges are involved.

It is simply natural selection in action. The males predisposed to doing things that will aid their sperm have a larger chance of creating offspring, thus each generation will be more likely to have habits that aid in reproduction than the generation before. Monkeys do not know they wank for better chances of being the baby's daddy, they just wank because they enjoy wanking.

Raziel

Avery
There was a video of 2 gorillas having oral sex, because of a rumor that somebody at the zoo showed them a video of humans from "p-hub" and they imitated that act. I'm sure it's a learned behavior, but if animals experience happiness, they'll reenact certain characteristics to get rewarded. Similar to dogs knowing treats are good if they follow a few commands.

As for humans, everyone has a different amount of sex drive, and whoever you ask may give you a different perspective. There is a belief that animals are programmed to reproduce and mate as much as they can. Some animals only mate with alphas, so I'm not sure if it is because of dominant genes or not, but it could be part of the programming that states "must have sex."

Edit (in case you wondered): https://nypost.com/2021/09/23/gorillas-shock-onlookers-with-oral-sex-at-bronx-zoo-video/?utm_source=reddit.com

MissBlossom

Avery
Those who believe in evolution speak of evolved "strategies," but they're just behaviors or characteristics that were "selected for" over time because they led to greater reproductive success. The term does not imply conscious planning or strategizing in the human sense.

Those who believe in special creation speak of God's design, and His decision in His wisdom to give certain animals certain characteristics and instincts.

I cannot imagine that male apes have any concept that there is a cause and effect relationship between self pleasure and the probability that the female they are mating with will have their biological offspring instead of another male ape's. From the perspective of the ape, it probably just feels good.

pestulens

Avery mostly inborn drives, though at least some apes (other than humans) are smart enough that they might be able to figure it out.
There are a bunch of other "strategies" that males employ in this kind of competition that are purely physiological so we know it shapes the creature.

Also, yes I aggre studying other primates (especially other apes) cab give us useful incite info humans, though we should be cautious about jumping to conclusions

Avery

youdontknowme Monkeys do not know they wank for better chances of being the baby's daddy, they just wank because they enjoy wanking.

When I was in high school girls would ask their boyfriends to "wank" aforehand so they would be less ready freddy and last longer to give the girl more satisfaction.

Avery

Raziel Some animals only mate with alphas,

Another high school example some girls would only "mate" with (American) football players. Same thing. I found runners smarter and better lays because they had more imagination.

Avery

MissBlossom I cannot imagine that male apes have any concept that there is a cause and effect relationship between self pleasure and the probability that the female they are mating with will have their biological offspring instead of another male ape's. From the perspective of the ape, it probably just feels good.

That makes sense to me, whatever that's worth. Probably what people paid for it.

Avery

pestulens mostly inborn drives, though at least some apps (other than humans) are smart enough that they might be able to figure it out.

That would be apes.

pestulens Also, yes I agree studying other primates (especially other apes) can give us useful insight into humans, though we should be cautious about jumping to conclusions.

It's parallels I find interesting. Animals act in certain fashions to chase off competing males or attract nearby females. Human males do the same, grooming themselves, driving fancy cars, taking girls to fancy places. Now that beach season has started where I am you can see guys sticking close to their girlfriends who wear in skimpy bikinis, the guys hoping to ward off any interested strangers.

MissBlossom

Avery Another high school example some girls would only "mate" with football players.

Almost every abused woman I have known well over the years told me about the same thing. They knew their boyfriend or husband was violent, but they didn't think he would hurt THEM. Sometimes they say he was "exciting." I think some women perceive violence as strength or being "alpha" or something like that.

I always want to tell them so much but I'm afraid it will seem like I'm blaming them so I just offer sympathy.

pestulens

Avery That would be apes

Fixed, thanks. I was on mobile when I wrote that.
As for the rest, you have the right idea. We need the occasional reminder that humans are apes, so we should expect behaviors common across the family to show up in us as well. That said, the environment most humans live in is so different from the one we evolved for (culturally as well as physically) that some weirdness is also to be expected.

Avery

pestulens That said, the environment most humans live in is so different from the one we evolved for (culturally as well as physically) that some weirdness is also to be expected.

Oh I agree. We evolved in a world where women needed men because survival depended more on being strong, being able to pursue and kill prey, till the soil, bale hay, protect women while they nurtured children. Men were born bigger and stronger than women and it was perfectly clear they were needed. Now as equal opportunity movements and labor saving devices have narrowed the need for physicality and women do not, in many cases, have to marry to get themselves laid men have to invent some kind of strategy to get and hold onto women.

pestulens

Avery I was thinking of a time before even most of that when we were just another pack hunter on the African savanna and hadn't tamed fire yet. You are correct, sex differences mattered a whole lot more back then than they do now that we can build tools to do any job we would do by main strength better than any human could. However, I would say the biggest difference is the scale of our social environment. Back then, we lived in bands of about 200 people at most and you lived your entire life not only with your band but relied on each other for everything.

MissBlossom

Avery Now as equal opportunity movements and labor saving devices have narrowed the need for physicality and women do not, in many cases, have to marry to get themselves laid men have to invent some kind of strategy to get and hold onto women.

I think you may have this backwards.

Now that men no longer need to marry to "get laid," it is now a greater challenge for women to get and hold onto men.

Avery

MissBlossom Now that men no longer need to marry to "get laid," it is now a greater challenge for women to get and hold onto men.

This is a function of age group.

Joh

It is an interesting topic and conversation but on the wrong place. It would be good if @Laura would move it in its own.

Sin

Jen if you search masturbation apes...

Jesus Christ girl what on earth is in your search history?! You need to get out of your belt more! 😛

Jen

🤣
Sin just tried it again ... Nope all good nothing spicy. Yeah so um is that search a problem for you? 😝

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