Moral and legal questions on belting

Ines

Milord And this is why part of the consent is missing, and so pretty easy to prove the abuse.

No. If I have the key.... What consent have I to revoke?

Milord

The belted girls and boys are better than me. I dearly loved my parents, and I still miss my father, but should they have done what they did to them, I would have no qualm in sending them to jail.

Ines No. If I have the key.... What consent have I to revoke?

I tried to prove another point: Normally gathering evidence of abuse is difficult. In this case it's immensely easy, because you DON'T have the key.

youdontknowme

Milord The complete phrase is not that they should, but that if they should, they can have them incarcerated. Here the complete phrase

That is the thing. Of the people here who had been locked up before their 18th birthday, none of them want their parents sent to gaol. That is what makes the issue so much more complicated. They love their parents, but not that one thing their parents do.

Getting the authorities involved becomes a much easier thing when the expected outcome is actually the outcome you want, but for most less-than-voluntary wearers who posted here, that is not the case.

Damien I checked back with our common friend and decided to keep his money in my pocket. I only gave it back to him when we arrived back in our home town, which he explicitly thanked me and our common friend for on the spot, and again a few days later.

That is ultimately the difference between using a chastity belt as a toy and using it as protection: what constitutes revocation of consent.

I absolutely believe that if the wearer clearly communicates that they no longer consent to wearing the belt, in the absence of an agreement to the contrary, the keyholder's only acceptable action is to remove the belt immediately. I furthermore believe that the keyholder has no business trying to pressure, guilt or persuade the wearer into making an agreement that alters this basic principle. But if every single one of these conditions is met:

the wearer wants to use the belt for a goal other than sexual play
they do not trust themself to not abuse the standard consent rules of sexual interactions
the wearer fully trusts the keyholder in having their well-being at heart
there is a clearly definied maximum timespan before the consent question has to be resolved (which involves ending the current keyholding arrangement if there is any doubt about consent at the end of it)
that timespan is only as long as it needs to be to address the wearer's self-trust issues
the wearer enters that agreement freely, enthusiastically and fully informed about what it entails

I believe a cooldown period may be acceptable.

Tjc

youdontknowme But if every single one of these conditions is met:
the wearer wants to use the belt for a goal other than sexual play
they do not trust themself to not abuse the standard consent rules of sexual interactions
the wearer fully trusts the keyholder in having their well-being at heart
there is a clearly definied maximum timespan before the consent question has to be resolved (which involves ending the current keyholding arrangement if there is any doubt about consent at the end of it)
that timespan is only as long as it needs to be to address the wearer's self-trust issues
the wearer enters that agreement freely, enthusiastically and fully informed about what it entails

I believe a cooldown period may be acceptable.

I consented (actually asked) to wear a belt but also specifically asked for a 10 day cool down period, no matter what (except medical issue, obviously). If I ask to be out, I do not regard being told to wait 10 days as a violation of my consent, even though it would seem that I have revoked it. This is, I think, a tricky issue in a lot of these KH relationships. I think the same situation would apply to someone under 18 who CHOOSES to wear a belt for a reasonable goal but then asks to be released. Consent can be for a specific purpose. I think some may not agree with this. In any event, imposed (not suggested or offered) chastity belts are wrong for any age but especially minors.

Angelina

youdontknowme That is the thing. Of the people here who had been locked up before their 18th birthday, none of them want their parents sent to gaol. That is what makes the issue so much more complicated. They love their parents, but not that one thing their parents do.

Getting the authorities involved becomes a much easier thing when the expected outcome is actually the outcome you want, but for most less-than-voluntary wearers who posted here, that is not the case.

Thank you, I think that is the main point that also describes my life perfectly 🙂

Damien

Milord Normally gathering evidence of abuse is difficult. In this case it's immensely easy, because you DON'T have the key.

You might be simplifying things here. Not every locked collar, bracelet or belt on your body constitutes sexual abuse. Maybe you've exchanged keys with a friend. Or just left it at home. Sometimes is has symbolic or erotic value. Getting rid of it is as easy as visiting the local fire brigade.

Ah, not everybody wants to go to the authorities? Then they might be under psychological pressure, which is at least as powerful as a 2mm steel band. You're an experienced dom, do I even have to elaborate?

Ines

Milord you DON'T have the key.

Precisely because I have gave my consent!!!!

youdontknowme

Milord The belted girls and boys are better than me. I dearly loved my parents, and I still miss my father, but should they have done what they did to them, I would have no qualm in sending them to jail.

It is easy to stick to your values in hypotheticals. But when you are actually under pressure to make such a decision, there is no telling if your response would still be the same.

Laura

Milord In this case it's immensely easy, because you DON'T have the key.

Didn't know that wearing a lock without the key causes any legal issues

Owl

Continuation from extended introduction ( https://unwedchastity.org/d/1-introductions/5303 ):

Milord This is a crime. [...] This is a major offense, for sure worth of some years in jail.
My I have an opinion toward the fact that a major crime [...]
Not judging. Just considering.

Allow me a perhaps philosophical, but IMHO also (somewhat) practical remark: As a lawyer, you must face the confrontation with the following question: How can there be crime, without rules (in this case laws) judged by persons?

Milord

Owl a crime is an event that is relevant under a penal jurisdiction.
Judgments is about commining punishment for the crime.
Killing someone is a crime even if no one is judged for it.
Sorry, trying to make as easy as possible. Hope I expressed myself correctly

James

All I can really say at this point to @Milord:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2c-X8HiBng

WriterAlexis

James

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2c-X8HiBng

But we are living in a self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes are oppressed! In real life!

Owl

WriterAlexis

Politics Alert! ;-)

James

Owl / WriterAlexis

Look here! I didn't vote for either of you!

WriterAlexis

James

If somebody ever calls me a "moistened bint," hands will be caught. Regardless of its veracity.

Tonyand03

WriterAlexis What will you do? Lob a scimitar at them?

James

WriterAlexis If somebody ever calls me a "moistened bint," hands will be caught. Regardless of its veracity.

Now we see the violence inherent in the system!

WriterAlexis

Laura

Didn't know that wearing a lock without the key causes any legal issues

@Milord

What about a permanently welded bracelet? They are on trend right now.

Sabina

Milord On a minor, because it misses on point 4,

I basically agree with your argument, but on this one aspect I have some doubt.

1) Obviously, it is worthy of the highest condemnation if parents force a minor to wear a chastity belt using a relationship of dependence. But don't you think that a person of, say, 16-17 years of age (and therefore mature enough to have sex legally in almost all European countries) is mature enough to be able to decide that his or her body is restricted to some extent? A good such as freedom can, after all, be restricted quite freely with the consent of its possessor. I ask because I have had a similar experience myself - I got the belt when I was 17, but my parents did not in any way force me to wear it, I did so entirely voluntarily.

2) In your opinion, can a minor who has reached the age of consent legally participate in BDSM practices? In my opinion yes, although I know this is rather frowned upon in the bdsm community.

Joh

Sabina Now we come from the strict applying the law to see how specific situation are.

We had already discussed a case from Germany. The law sets the framework from which age and age difference relationships with sex are allowed. There was a case where an under age girl of 15? years has relationship with a 40 year old man. She was able to make clear to the court how important the relationship is for her. The court ruled in favour of the girl and against her parents who were against the relationship.

You are right in your conclusions and stating the facts but it will hardly change the attitude. But I have hope it will come back to mind when they have gained distance.

Milord

Sabina hi Sabina
Trying to recover for a 12 hours driving…. Really tired!

Sabina 1) Obviously, it is worthy of the highest condemnation if parents force a minor to wear a chastity belt using a relationship of dependence. But don't you think that a person of, say, 16-17 years of age (and therefore mature enough to have sex legally in almost all European countries) is mature enough to be able to decide that his or her body is restricted to some extent? A good such as freedom can, after all, be restricted quite freely with the consent of its possessor. I ask because I have had a similar experience myself - I got the belt when I was 17, but my parents did not in any way force me to wear it, I did so entirely voluntarily.

Consent is something that is “activated” in a relationship. It can be taken for granted, unless there are some mental disorder, if you do things by yourself. If you freely decide to get belted when you are minor, then your parents have the legal right to challenge your chooses, but there is no consent issue here.

Sabina 2) In your opinion, can a minor who has reached the age of consent legally participate in BDSM practices? In my opinion yes, although I know this is rather frowned upon in the bdsm community.

Absolutely no! No bdsm for minors! Bdsm is alternative sexuality, must be explored when you have the emotional maturity to understand it. Be aware that we are talking about power dynamics.
I avoid doing things with young people, normally I avoid anyone younger than 24, but it’s a personal choose. No serious bdsmer will ever do this.
Being OT in this forum, if you write me (mail in profile) I can give you more information

Owl

Milord [...] consent must be free, it must be clearly expressed, must be given by someone who is capable of discernement (not minor, [...]

Soft personal disagreement on fixed age limits. My position: If a minor is allowed to consent to sex, they should be allowed to consent to chastity, incl. device-assisted one.

I'm aware that this demands societal vigilance and scrutiny to increase the likelihood that everything is really in the best interest of the adolescent.

Addition: Very abbreviated, I'd consider it a similar category as extended medical treatment.

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