Moral and legal questions on belting

youdontknowme

Milord In this hypothetical scenario, the young person wants to wear the belt. The parent does not care one way or the other and decides to follow the wearer's wishes. The important bit is that the parent does not gain anything from their offspring wearing the belt, so they have no incentive to keep them locked other than to comply with the wearer's wishes. The moment the keyholder has interest in keeping the wearer locked, that is an entirely different scenario where your concerns apply.

Milord

In case a young adult want to be belted there is nothing to add. Also this post doesn’t apply: it fall under auto determination. I still think parents are not a good choice, but it is outside any moral or legal considerations. It’s an adult deciding for him/herself

Angelina

Milord There are victims every time there is someone unjustly suffering by hands of another.

in my example nobody suffers but a third person would interfere without knowing the background, that's the point

Milord If a conflict arise with keyholding parents, who will be the exit strategy?

of course this has to be clarified beforehand and all sides have to commit to follow it in case there are conflicts

Milord

Angelina in my example nobody suffers but a third person would interfere without knowing the background, that's the point

In the example your supposed daughter is minor, and even if willingly, minors have not the same autonomy of an adult, and being a fragile subject, a lot of things are prohibited or limited.
For example a minor can never be a sex worker, even if parents agree
A minor is severely limited in decisions tied to medical issues.
A minor must go to school
Etc

Milord

Angelina of course this has to be clarified beforehand and all sides have to commit to follow it in case there are conflicts

And how you can prevent conflicts? Or make rules beforehand for all conflicts arising? It’s totally impossible.

Angelina

Milord In the example your supposed daughter is minor, and even if willingly, minors have not the same autonomy of an adult, and being a fragile subject, a lot of things are prohibited or limited.

therefore, as a mother in this situation, i would have to assess whether my daughter is in a position to make such a momentous decision

Milord Or make rules beforehand for all conflicts arising? It’s totally impossible.

of course you can't plan for every situation, but there are plenty of examples here of how to organise an exit scenario in the event of a revocation

Milord

Angelina therefore, as a mother in this situation, i would have to assess whether my daughter is in a position to make such a momentous decision

Still your decision as mother can't ignore the law. I hope you agree with that

Milord

Angelina of course you can't plan for every situation, but there are plenty of examples here of how to organise an exit scenario in the event of a revocation

Getting back to the original point, that is: if a person outside the family abuses of his position as keyholder, parents will step in

If parents abuse of their position, who will step in?

The topic arises comparing parents vs non parent keyholders

Angelina

Milord I hope you agree with that

of course i agree, but i don't see any law that i would be breaking if i agreed to such a decision on a voluntary basis

Milord If parents abuse of their position, who will step in?

there are many places where those affected can turn to, in the ultimate case the police. i'm only talking about voluntary deals here, force is generally always a criminal offence, even with adult children

Milord

Angelina there are many places where those affected can turn to, in the ultimate case the police. i'm only talking about voluntary deals here, force is generally always a criminal offence, even with adult children

It seems to me that asking for police intervention is almost unheard of, and you often say that you would never do that. It’s my idea that after getting in, getting out is much more difficult, so best is to prevent than having to solve it.
As I pointed out different time, consent when something is strongly suggest by parents is a grey area at least.

Milord

Angelina of course i agree, but i don't see any law that i would be breaking if i agreed to such a decision on a voluntary basis

I don’t know enough the German law, but I will bet that a minor of 18 is probably not considered mature enough to forfeit his/her sexuality. But I’m guessing, so no way I can be sure of it.

Joh

Angelina there are many places where those affected can turn to, in the ultimate case the police. i'm only talking about voluntary deals here, force is generally always a criminal offence, even with adult children

You are the best example of how useless the possibilities are. Even though your father forced you to, you didn't go to anyone for help. You were convinced yourself that this was an internal family matter and that the state had nothing to say about it.
Today you describe it as a criminal offence, but I don't think you see it as such for your father.

Angelina

Milord and you often say that you would never do that.

my situation was also completely different, it is clear to me that a voluntary agreement must be intervened if the key holder abuses his position of power and thus also the trust of the wearer, this applies in every constellation

Milord But I’m guessing, so no way I can be sure of it.

I'm not sure about that either, but I don't know of any law that speaks against it

Joh You are the best example of how useless the possibilities are.

as i have already written, i am talking about voluntary agreements, which is something completely different from what happened to me

Milord

Angelina I'm not sure about that either, but I don't know of any law that speaks against it

Don’t you think that, if for example a teacher discover a girl in chastity, social services will not be involved?
Law speaks on general terms. For example in Italy is the same, but according to professionals 100% there will be an involvement of child abuse prevention services and definitively the minor will be taken away from parents.

Angelina

Milord Don’t you think that, if for example a teacher discover a girl in chastity, social services will not be involved?

of course they will then be involved, they will check whether everything is really voluntary and it does not hinder the girl in her development, but it is not illegal

Milord

Angelina it’s illegal to negatively impact a minor sexual development. It is considered a sexual abuse (of course in Italy, but I suppose Germany is not different). Then, always it Italy, there is a special process activated in presence of sexual abuse toward an adult woman. “Codice rosso” (red code).

youdontknowme

Milord I doubt that there are many jurisdictions in the world where a piece of legislation or a court ruling have determined that disproportionate measures to prevent sexual intercourse quality as unlawful interference in sexual development. Usually, courts are more concerned with miors ebing forced to have sex than with them being forced not to. As such, I would imagine a prosecutor's argument would focus more on the girls being made to wear a contraption in direct contact with their genitals that is frequently marketed as a bondage toy.

Angelina

Milord it’s illegal to negatively impact a minor sexual development.

of course this is illegal, but the question in my example is whether it really has a negative effect if both sides agree to it voluntarily ?

Milord

youdontknowme as for Italy, having a wife working on this field I’m pretty sure on this. Tampering with minor genitals, forcefully preventing masturbation or reaching private part is sexual abuse
In Italy social services almost always avoid suspending parental rights, preferring other kind of intervention that are less traumatics
Except when sexuality is involved, in which case almost 100 % of the time minors are taken away
Thank you for your mindful intervention
ADD: in the end, I think that preventing masturbation and tampering with body autonomy make it illegal much more than preventing sex. Parents can ground minors, imposing curfew etc. They can't tie them down for example

Milord

Angelina probably yes, even if being willingly will lessen some negative impacts

I will make an example, using your hypothetical 14yo daughter.
Let's say that your daughter doesn't want to stay with other people. She's uneasy with others, she just want to be removed from peer social life. She asks you to never let her get out except the bare minimum, and ask you, as a mother, to be very strict on this, even grounding her to prevent getting out, because she will regret later.
You agree
Its voluntary? Yes
It's healthy? I think it isn't
She will suffer less than If this is imposed, still it will negatively impact her growth.
Social life is, in my opinion, more important than touching self for personal development, still I hope it makes a good example.

Angelina

Milord still I hope it makes a good example.

I understand your example, but based on the example, I would also like to say that I would never force my daughter to have a social life, this had a negative impact on me as a child when the adults really wanted me to do something with children my age . In fact, I was a loner as a child. That changed as I got older and today I'm a very social person. Sorry, I'm getting off topic, maybe it brought something up again.
So I understand what you mean, but I can say that social isolation is not good for my daughter. When it comes to a chastity belt, I can't say 100% that it's bad

« Previous Page Next Page »