Chastity contract

Sasha

Spork I posted the literal definition on some of those. Battery for example, unwanted touching is battery. Most laws are pretty clear, at least it’s clear to me anyway, maybe it isn’t to most? Not sure

youdontknowme

Sasha I mean, there are environments where corporal punishment is deemed acceptable and laws against assault and battery would not be enforced in such an environment unless taken to an excessive degree - maybe even with written exemptions.

Now, the use of chastity belts is such an unheard-of thing that I doubt there is any jurisdiction where you would find them specifically named in either legal code or court rulings, but that does not change the fact that use of the belt could violate certain other laws - which would however leave room for interpretation if such a thing ever came to court.

Finally, I find it rather interesting how often Americans draw the boundary between general hostility and crime at "touching". Might be the high role that freedom of speech plays in your version of human and civil rights that makes it difficult to legislate (and enforce laws) against verbal threats, while simultaneously needing a transgression that is less than bodily harm.

Spork

Sasha I posted the literal definition on some of those. Battery for example, unwanted touching is battery. Most laws are pretty clear, at least it’s clear to me anyway, maybe it isn’t to most? Not sure

You have not posted what an actual law says. You've said that battery is defined as either "unwanted touching" or "unlawful touching". Clearly it is not battery to accidentally touch someone once on the shoulder whilst on a busy train, even if that person does not want it. And if you mean "unlawful" as you said earlier in the thread, that just raises the question of what "lawful" means. So, things are not that simple.

The last time I did jury duty, someone was being charged with (amongst other things) carrying an offensive weapon, on the basis that, when attacked by a drunkard, they were alleged to have wielded a box cutter that they had been using as part of their job. A large part of the disagreement between the prosecution and the defence reading carefully into the detailed points of law regarding what counts as carrying an offensive weapon, including what counts as "carrying" and what counts as an "offensive weapon". The judge read the exact text of the relevant law out as part of the jury instructions, and spoke for over half an hour on how to interpret this and what case law had previously determined, and we still had to work out for ourselves whether or not the law would have been broken if we agreed with the prosecution's presentation of the facts.

Sasha

youdontknowme Typically how the law is applied is to make acts like grabbing someone’s arm or spitting on them punishable.
But as I said it’s up to the cops to determine if it’s meets the criteria, and a prosecutor agrees, and ultimately a judge or jury.
Laws are what they are, it’s the potentially biased human enforcing it that makes things complicated.

Angelina

Spork What would the courts enforce?

it would depend on whether it was medically ethically correct. the comparison to a private chastity belt contract, however, is very far-fetched in my opinion

Spork That's kind of my point. A lot of the posts in this thread are conflating morality and legality, and assuming that because something is immoral according to their viewpoint, it must be clearly and definitively illegal.

do we agree that it is illegal to put someone in a chastity belt against their will? If so, then the contract would automatically be illegal from the point at which a court has to deal with the review of the contract at all, because at that point the person is definitely wearing the belt against his/her will

youdontknowme Might be the high role that freedom of speech plays in your version of human and civil rights that makes it difficult to legislate (and enforce laws) against verbal threats,

which is also reasonable, an opinion is not a crime

Spork in that it is legal to escape prison there.

of course it's legal, it's just almost impossible to do it without committing other crimes 😂

pestulens

Spork Part of the problem is that we have not been talking about the law in any particular jurisdiction, but in general. If you want the exact text of the law, you need to specify exactly where (and when but we can just assume 'right now')

Sasha

Spork You were debating the merits of the charge, against the circumstances and relevant case law, which is where it gets confusing and complicated.
This is why lawyers get paid so much and go to school so long. Because someone has to understand it.
There were a few times I got involved in things where a weapon came into play, and they had to work out possession among other things. Never went forward with that stuff though

Spork

pestulens Part of the problem is that we have not been talking about the law in any particular jurisdiction, but in general. If you want the exact text of the law, you need to specify exactly where (and when but we can just assume 'right now')

This is my point. As much as "unlawful" and "illegal" are being thrown around in this thread, nobody has provided the text of an actual law in any jurisdiction which says that putting a minor in a chastity belt is illegal.

Sasha

Spork Because there isn’t such a law, likely anywhere in the world.
That being said, there are plenty of ways a prosecutor could charge such a case should it present itself.
Of course the down side of there not being a law specifically prohibiting it means a parent may assume that makes it legal. Or an LEO in certain areas may not see it as a crime.

pestulens

Spork I also have never heard of a law spacificaly against stabbing someone with a fork in a bar fight. General laws agenst assault are written broadly enough that they don't need to be that specific. I have been at events that have had policies about bringing working siege weapons, which in and of itself tells me that must have come up before.

If a case like that had come to the attention of the authorities of say Dearborn Michigan in 1918, the local prosecutor world have had to search the applicable laws to see what might fit the specific facts of that particular case. It would ultimately be up to a judge and/or jury to decide. Give the outlandish and sensational nature of such a case, I would expect that the judge/jury wouldn't be inclined to be sympathetic, but I would also expect the prosecutor would rather plead the case out rather considering the lack of president.

luhuixin

Avery wow

Spork

Angelina do we agree that it is illegal to put someone in a chastity belt against their will?

In the specific case of an adult doing it to a child, I think that one is going to heavily depend upon jurisdiction. In many parts of the world, including liberal democracies, it is (for example) perfectly legal for adults to restrain children, beat them moderately hard, and even to inflict permanent genital mutilation upon their sons without consent. In some cultures, the right of parents to raise their children the way they see fit is considered more important than the rights of the children: indeed, the state prohibiting certain practices is sometimes seen as religious or ethnic cleansing.

Angelina of course it's legal, it's just almost impossible to do it without committing other crimes 😂

No, Germany is odd there. In most places the act of escaping is itself illegal. It's a weird quirk of the way the German constitution views bodily autonomy that escaping can't be made illegal on its own.

Angelina

Spork I think that one is going to heavily depend upon jurisdiction.

i would say at least in most western democracies it's illegal. that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. in my case my father even knew it was illegal, he just didn't care. but i think you haven't understood my argument yet. we're talking about a voluntary contract, for voluntary wear. as soon as a court has to review it, it's no longer voluntary wear

Spork It's a weird quirk of the way the German constitution views bodily autonomy that escaping can't be made illegal on its own.

what is interesting in this context is that it is illegal if you help someone escape from prison 😉

George

Spork
In Europe it would almost certainly violate the European Human Rights Convention.

Now in the USA, it might be more complicated, as in the good old US Human rights have no legal status. OTOH the US has still a ton of funky laws about sex on the books, and chastity belts are primary seen by the mainstream as sex toys. Not sure if you realize that the Mann Act is till today enforced. And while it's not as nebulous as it was in its definition, if any state you touch would define your "chastity contract" illegal, your vacation just turned very problematic.

youdontknowme

Angelina but i think you haven't understood my argument yet. we're talking about a voluntary contract, for voluntary wear. as soon as a court has to review it, it's no longer voluntary wear

I think the idea is that a contract, as a binding agreement, could supersede the ability to retract consent. Which may be true in financial transactions, but is definitely not true in agreements where you choose not to exercise your unalienable homan rights.

Angelina

youdontknowme

already understood that, i just wonder if it makes a difference if the contract says ‘that the contract is a voluntary wearing of the belt’ or ‘even if consent is no longer given’

George

youdontknowme
Ah, but the point is not all contracts must be valid legally or enforced by a court, e.g. if there are other considerations. E.g. Why did @Angelina voluntary agree to the contract? A contract implies always there is a two-sided exchange of considerations, so what did she get out of it?

Angelina

George so what did she get out of it?

in my case, of course, wearing the belt was not really voluntary, but the contract helped me anyway. i had a paper that clearly stated what was expected of me, what my father was supposed to do and what the penalties were for breaking the rules. at least it brought a certain clarity and helped to avoid arbitrariness

Jenna

Angelina I have never really heard any details of the contract that you used to have with your father. Would you be willing to share those now that the agreement is over? What types of punishments were used if rules were broken. As I outlined above I believe successful outcomes for wearing a belt should have detailed agreements so expectations are met on both sides. The girls and I modify our agreements regularly when conditions change.

Angelina

Jenna

well, punishments were breaks from the bands and the bra (which I negotiated) being abolished or more devices, more restrictive version of the thigh bands, connecting chains from bra to belt etc.
then the contracts stated what I have to wear, why I have to wear it, hygiene times etc.
what else would you like to know?

Jenna

Angelina That is good, thank you Angelina. Certainly our situation is different. My relationship with the girls is much more collaborative, I try to do things to make the whole process of wearing a belt easier. The goal is belt wearing, ideally for as much time as possible, to avoid temptations. I would never use chastity bras or any kind of punitive measures on the girls. Thigh bands are only used with permission and consent and only when urges becoming overwhelming and problematic. I am sorry you had to go through that.

rob4life

Angelina

Sorry to read that.
I hope you kept those contracts
They might prove useful in case you want to claim justice

Hope it helps

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