George I've managed to raise me as a very pragmatic atheist

Why not be a pragmatic Catholic. Boston College, a Jesuit institution, forbids the distribution on campus of condoms. So the Boston College Students for Sexual Health (BCSSH), an independent organization, sets up a table outside of McElroy Commons (the student center) on the corner of College Road, a city street, city property, and distributes condoms. The priests have done their duty and so has BCSSH. The only people who lose might be students who believe a condom is adequate protection (against pregnancy, not venerial disease).

      Angelina it would probably have frustrated me even more if i had been able to see my private parts all the time.

      I have to agree with this, even wearing voluntarily, being able to see it like that would drive me nuts

        Huh. This is an interesting consensus forming. Guess I'm an outlier.

          WriterAlexis Coming from another walk of life.

          And your positions are for Americans rather extreme.

          Avery Why not be a pragmatic Catholic

          Well to be more precise, I probably tend most to somewhere between atheist and agnostic. And what could be called "social Catholic" (potentially practicing some of the rituals but not for the religious but the social relevancy). Arguably that is a form of "pragmatic Catholic" too.

                George potentially practicing some of the rituals

                Personally, I drive over to the church and sit in my car and pray to each of the three statues. Also enter the church on sunny Sundays before people arrive and pray there.

                  WriterAlexis I suggest choosing wisely, and considering emigrating to Europe.

                  You know a nice place where religion is mostly, well religion. Not something that generally controls your life.

                  It's one of my personal jokes, I personally don't have a problem with Muslims. Not the boogeyman our right wing populist try to make them. But then all the ones I know personally, practice their faith about as intensely as I do with my Catholicism.

                  The most fundamentalist Muslim we've known personally was school friend of the kids. No she did not dress differently from the kids, 2nd generation Austrian anyway, but a small rebel, she insisted on trying to keep the diet (her idea, not her parents, which quietly rolled the eyes), so we made sure to have pork free stuff available when she visited. 🤷

                  That's the kind how religion should interfere with your life, IMHO, and not an inch further, @WriterAlexis

                      George I personally don't Muslims.

                      Err... this sentence no verb?

                      But yeah, I am very much a proponent of the religion-as-a-penis rule. It is fine to have one, fine to not have one, fine to be proud of the one you have. But don't wave it in people's faces without their consent, and definitely don't try to shove it down a child's throat.

                          youdontknowme Err... this sentence no verb?

                          Actually half a sentence got stuck in the output queue of my brain.

                          When that happens to me in German, people start to accuse me that I'm not a native speaker. 😆

                              George When that happens to me in German, people start to accuse me that I'm not a native speaker. 😆

                              now I have to apologize 😂

                                George I personally don't have a problem with Muslims. Not the boogeyman our right wing populist try to make them

                                Same here. I feel that is another case where overgeneralization can turn something from statistics to malicious discrimination. When I see people marching under a banner of their faith, it matters less whether that banner is a cross or a crescent, and more whether they are carrying pitchforks or bread baskets.

                                Yes, statistically muslims are more likely to be fundamentalists with inhumane views. But the vast majority of muslims, whether practicing or not, are decent and kind people whose scariest part is what they vote for. Same with christians, and the only reason they are less likely to be bad guys is that society has actively tried to remove the bad apples from the bunch. Take a look overseas, that is where some of them ended up, and christian society in some corners of those places is not that much better than muslim society in some rather backwards countries.

                                    youdontknowme Take a look overseas, that is where some of them ended up, and christian society in some corners of those places is not that much better than muslim society in some rather backwards countries.

                                    Are you talking about the US?

                                    If so, remember that the news likes to show extremes.

                                    Most people, even conservative Christians, just want to live and let live.

                                        MissBlossom Most people, even conservative Christians, just want to live and let live.

                                        Same as with muslims in Arabia. There are not many that cause problems, but those that do cause massive ones, and sadly, the kind masses also help the unkind few stay in power.

                                          [Off-Topic]

                                          Ines It is OK do not allow long showers without the belt, but to spy daughters is a madness in my value scale.

                                          I highly value privacy and assume I understand the direction of your argument. I just would like to offer an addition and explanation that does not require perversion:

                                          I remind that there are parts of the world where even fathers see their daughters naked from the moment they are born. Some societies expect them to clean, care, swaddle them, up to proclaiming it as desired and reasonable parenting. Besides: What to do, if other caregivers are not available, anyway?
                                          And I presume it generally works without harm. It's probably close growing up together and normal biological course that prevents actual incestuous preferences and acts to happen. (Just except from the cases spectacular and terrible we learn about in modern media.)

                                              Owl I remind that there are parts of the world where even fathers see their daughters naked from the moment they are born. Some societies expect them to clean, care, swaddle them, up to proclaiming it as desired and reasonable parenting. Besides: What to do, if other caregivers are not available, anyway?

                                              I assume nobody here objects to a father changing a baby daughter's diapers or something, but in many societies, nudity that is appropriate for a baby is not considered appropriate for a teenager. Therefore, I have no problem with the fact that girls want to have some privacy from their father once they are at an age where other males may desire their bodies.

                                              That said, I find it appropriate to have the same reservations towards same-sex parents as well. I do not think it is our place to tell a girl (or boy for that matter) what sort of people she (he) should demand privacy from in what situation. Personally, as a boy I am as comfortable nude in front of my mother as I am with my father, always have been (overall comfort levels varied over time, but they never discriminated by whom) but I do not want either in the room when I am washing my lower body.

                                                Owl In parts of Europe, small kids are still running naked around public pools. If they don't need a nappy.

                                                  Owl

                                                  so i think it's ok for fathers to help their daughters shower or change diapers when the girls are little, or if there is an illness that the girls can't wash by themselves etc. but that's not what we're talking about, generally i think teenage kids should have privacy in the shower

                                                      Angelina so i think it's ok for fathers to help their daughters shower or change diapers when the girls are little, or if there is an illness that the girls can't wash by themselves etc. but that's not what we're talking about, generally i think teenage kids should have privacy in the shower

                                                      At the very least, they should have the opportunity to request it, and the expectation that it would be granted unless there is a good reason to say no. Like limited bathroom space and she likes to take long showers while everyone else needs to use the toilet or brush their teeth or something, that may be a valid reason for an open-bathroom policy. "So I can watch that you don't masturbate" seems a lot harder to justify in comparison.

                                                              WriterAlexis That is the reason why I am not exactly trusting any of those parent/daughter (or parent/son) relationships when it comes to consent, unless the wearer is truly as enthusiastic as, say, Ines is. Jenna's nieces for example seem like they are putting up with it because they want to make their aunt happy.