Single again chastity

Angelina

But then this must also apply to the mother herself.

Owl

Or the family members of same marital status. I'm inclined to say: Especially ones naming and shaming Christine while sexing around themselves. (All assuming we know all relevant parts of the story.)

Although I generally don't like the idea of chastity as punishment. :-| It deserves way better...

MissBlossom

Angelina But then this must also apply to the mother herself.

Angelina well, i think if a mother imposes this heavy burden of 24/7 chastity on her daughter because she says that orgasms without a relationship are unacceptable, then the same should apply to herself.

You seem to think that @Christine is going too easy on her mother by giving her breaks, but...

Angelina that's why the inverted commas, but it's similar to me and it triggers mixed feelings, the desire to take revenge is there, even if only subconsciously and as a key holder that's not a good prerequisite.

You seem to also be worried that she will try to take revenge, presumably by somehow being more strict than she should be.

I'm confused. How can these both be true?

Angelina

Owl

well, i think if a mother imposes this heavy burden of 24/7 chastity on her daughter because she says that orgasms without a relationship are unacceptable, then the same should apply to herself.

Owl

That being said - and to get a bit more general and not make this a Christine-only Thread:

The situation has reminded me about different concepts and variants of shame:

If shame leads to positive social connection, (re-)integration, contemplation what one wants, support, and/or is part of needed inner cleansing, it can actually be helpful. Some researcher call that pro-social shame.

Besides, let's face it: A failed marriage - at least in many societies I know - has also a lot of potential for shame of various kinds. Decide for yourself how you think about it.

Anyway, if an unpleasant situation, a personal failure etc leads to alienation, pillory, humiliation, etc. then shame becomes anti-social, destructive. Even more so when interwoven with double-standards. (Like some family members preaching chastity for singles, but violating their own standards, while the one family member of all, that actually wears a belt (w/ supervised breaks, full-time), is hold up to ridicule.)

toad

I understand you're stance, but shame more times than not turns within and become a negative force that leads to self hatred and more social isolation. Shame means i'm not good enough. There is nothing good that comes from that mindset. Once shame is established it takes a great deal of work to overcome. A great deal of work and generally a great deal of time. I do find this forum to be one that people can actually disagree, thanks

Christine

curious Did you ever ask your mother about her values?

No, we didn't discuss masturbation and so on.

Angelina as a former "victim" of your mother

I don't feel like a "victim".

Angelina are now the right key holder, it can put you in an emotionally difficult situation

It's her choice after all.

Angelina

Christine I don't feel like a "victim".

that's why the inverted commas, but it's similar to me and it triggers mixed feelings, the desire to take revenge is there, even if only subconsciously and as a key holder that's not a good prerequisite.

Jonas

Christine curious Did you ever ask your mother about her values?

No, we didn't discuss masturbation and so on.

Discussion would help to resolve this issue. I think a keyholder should be able to raise such topics freely.

curious

Angelina
The overall problem with @Christine and her mom seems to be, that each is only using the belt to project the own goals onto the other person and neither considers the goals of the actual wearer.

When Christine's mother was the keyholder, she enforced 24/7 complete chastity with no breaks for masturbating, which we can therefore quite safely assume is her "goal" or "standard" for what she considers appropriate.

Now the situation has changed and Christine is in the position of keyholder, but again instead of keeping her mother in complete chastity making sure she has no opportunity to masturbate (which was her mother's standard), Christine is applying her own standard to her mother, which allows for masturbating and only denies her sex with other men.

I think both @Christine and her mother would benefit from not projecting their own wishes onto the other but carefully looking at what values each has demonstrated and then help each other to enforce those values.
For Christine, that would be being belted again but with breaks for self gratification and in return she should keep her mother locked without any chance to touch herself.

Angelina

MissBlossom I'm confused. How can these both be true?

I think the mother should also wear a belt, also 24/7, just like she expected from @Christine. However, I don't think @Christine is the right key holder because she could react too emotionally due to the past

curious I think both @Christine and her mother would benefit from not projecting their own wishes onto the other but carefully looking at what values each has demonstrated and then help each other to enforce those values.
For Christine, that would be being belted again but with breaks for self gratification and in return she should keep her mother locked without any chance to touch herself.

I agree with the first part, but I don't know if I share the conclusions. it would then mean more restrictions for both sides than now, but maybe it's a good way

curious

Angelina I agree with the first part, but I don't know if I share the conclusions. it would then mean more restrictions for both sides than now, but maybe it's a good way

Well, Christine does not tolerate her mother to "sleep around". So the "no sex but masturbation is allowed" policy is what reflects Christine's values. And that means those values should apply to her, rather than Christine just projecting those values onto her mother.

I know that would result in both being more restricted, but it is better to live acording to your own values - even if that is not always convenient or comfortable - rather than just projecting those onto other people.

Angelina

curious So the "no sex but masturbation is allowed" policy is what reflects Christine's values.

I would contradict exactly on this point, I think she doesn't have these values, but only does it because her mother apparently met men and she thinks it's wrong that her mother is allowed to do it but she isn't/wasn't

curious

Angelina
Well, but she was not allowed to masturbate either.
And she has stated, that she does not care about her mother masturbating but she does care to make certain she cannot have sex with men.
To me that seems both actually agree that sex with random men should be forbidden but disagree on masturation. Mother is against masturbation (because she denied that for Christine) while Christine thinks masturbation is ok (because she does not care whether or not her mother does that).

Christine

Jonas Discussion would help to resolve this issue

I don't see an issue so far.

MissBlossom When do you want to go so far?

Probably never.

Angelina

curious

you might be right, but i would pass this question on to @Christine, so what exactly are her moral values. to me it sounds more like: "you didn't allow me to do something you do yourself, now you should have a belt too".

curious

Angelina
If it was that simple, why then not use her mother's rules on herself rather than define new rules?

But you are right, we need @Christine to answer that question because she is the only one who knows (or should know if she did not reflect on that point previsouly) while we can only speculate.

Angelina

curious If it was that simple, why then not use her mother's rules on herself rather than define new rules?

Maybe it seemed a bit harsh or not 100% enforceable, maybe she was worried her mother would then refuse.

MissBlossom Supervising showers or cleanings is work. If you don't care, you might not want to do all that extra work. It's much easier to just unlock when you arrive and lock when you leave.

of course, but someone who does not care enough about the wearer of the belt is absolutely not a suitable key holder in my eyes.

MissBlossom

@Angelina @curious you may be overthinking this with all this deep philosophical talk about values.

Christine I unlock it when come and make sure it's locked when leave.

Supervising showers or cleanings is work. If you don't care, you might not want to do all that extra work. It's much easier to just unlock when you arrive and lock when you leave.

curious

MissBlossom
I would argue that if as keyholder you are not prepared to take on that extra work, that indicates that you do not value the wearer enough and should never hold his/her key in the first place.

MissBlossom

curious
You would, you have, you did, and you do! lol

I don't entirely disagree. See MissBlossom

Christine MissBlossom and ask if that's something that she feels she needs.

I don't want to go so far yet.

@Christine, that little "yet" invites so much curiosity. When do you want to go so far?

MissBlossom

Angelina someone who does not care enough about the wearer of the belt is absolutely not a suitable key holder in my eyes.

I was talking about not caring about masturbation, not not caring about the wearer. @Christine obviously cares a great deal about her mother.

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